1912 Erfurt

brucew · 07-28-2003, 01:21 AM

I have a 1912 Erfirt with unit markings 12.T.S.3.129. Can anyone out there translate this for me?

I am amazed at the knowledge displayed in these forums (or forii).

Bruce

Brandon · 07-28-2003, 01:51 AM

Bruce,
Judging by the references in Jeff Noll's "The Imperial German Regimental Marking" I would guess that it means:

Train-Bataillon 12, SanitÃ?Â¤ts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe # 129

Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

Best Regards, Brandon

Navy · 07-28-2003, 02:16 AM

Brandon,
You have it right.

These are fairly rare Lugers as they were carried by the medics who evacuated (via train) casualties from the front. The analogy is "Train ambulance"

Several years ago, before my concentration on Navy pistols, I was fortunate to find a completely matching Train Saintats set. it ws lovely and rare, but I moved it along to support my habit.

Tom A.

brucew · 07-28-2003, 03:28 PM

Thanks guys,

This Luger is dated 1912, two years before the war. Were train ambulance groups formed in anticipation of war or what?

Bruce

renaissance · 07-28-2003, 04:25 PM

I am repeatedly stuned at the frequent references to Army "Medics" and weapons (Lugers and others).

I had always believed (perhaps naivley) that Medical Personnel traditionally went UN-ARMED.

Where was I mis-lead?

John Sabato · 07-28-2003, 04:40 PM

I think there is something in the Geneva conventions that prohibits the arming of medics in sanctioned combat but I don't have time to research it today... perhaps someone else knows.

AGE · 07-28-2003, 06:44 PM

My daughter's father in law was a medic in WWII. He has repeatedly told me that US medics in WWII were never never armed. That said, if I were a medic today in Iraq I would be armed (at least with a 100 year old Luger--or preferably my Para P-14).

Edward Tinker · 07-28-2003, 08:32 PM

I believe that they are allowed to be armed with a handgun, for defensive purposes only. Rifles and carbines are verboten, but pistols are okay.

If you have not read Our Fathers Flag, about the 2nd raising of the flag on Iwo Jima, then you need to read it. The man that wrote it is the son of one of the raisers and he was a Navy Medic, thought by being a medic he could keep out of the thick of the action, so of course he was assigned to the Marines. Great story, medics always have my admiration.

Ed

Ed

brucew · 07-28-2003, 08:42 PM

The Geneva convention has gone through many revisions since the original one in the 1800s. The almanac briefly mentions some of the changes made, but does not specificly mention the un-arming of medics. Perhaps that notion was after WW1.

Thanks again

Bruce

Roadkill · 07-28-2003, 09:41 PM

http://www.ku.edu/~ibetext/korean-wa.../msg00050.html

"Since 1940, the US has required its medical personnel to be armed. The medics in every unit in which I served certainly were armed, and did their qualification firings with the rest of us. There are repetitive tales from WWII, Korea, and Viet-Nam of medical personnel fighting to preserve the lives of their patients"

http://users.skynet.be/bulgecriba/medics.html

"During medical training, army medics received training in the use of the carbine and .45 pistol since some medics went to the Pacific war in which the Japanese had not signed the Geneva convention. Some medics in the ETO carried which were needed on certain occasions. Donald Ratliff, recalled how his 75th Division medics once captured a German in Vielsalm, Belgium. "One night in Vielsalm, Belgium, we went into a house to set up a battalion aid station. One of the men opened a closet door and a German soldier was sitting on the floor. He quickly surrendered when one of the men showed a .45 pistol". Although medics in the ETO were not armed, many medics carried pistols for self protection."

rk

Sgt Art · 07-29-2003, 07:12 PM

Corpsmen in Viet Nam were all armed with a .45 pistol.

Big Norm · 07-29-2003, 08:59 PM

Ed,
the book you are recommending is "Flags of Our Fathers" by James Bradley and Ron Flowers. Its a good read.

I never realized that Iwo Jima is a national military monument of both the Japanese and the Americans and that its accessibility is limited.
Big Norm

Edward Tinker · 07-29-2003, 10:16 PM

Yup, thats it Big Norm, knew I shouldn't have tried to go from memory.

Its a good read all right,

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Ed

Navy · 07-30-2003, 02:48 AM

All,
My platoon medic in 2/D/2-503rd PIR was Doc Valez. He humped his medic bag,(a good 20 pounds) plus all the stuff that a M-203 gunner carried in his vest (add another 20 pounds), plus the normal grunt load: 12 quarts of water, food for 4 days, 200 rounds of 7.62 MG ammo, 2 PRC radio batteries, 4 smoke grenades, 6 frag grenades, 2 Claymores and personal effects of a sentimental nature. Doc Valez's view was that if, and when, we got overrun, he would be the final protective fires. He was a dope-smoking hippie and a real challenge to leadership, but under fire he was one of the bravest men I ever met. He was armed and dangerous, both in and out, of the field. Such men are exactly what Steve Ambrose, my now departed friend, wrote about in "Citizen Soldiers", but Doc V was simply 25 years to late for Steve.
Tom A.
PS: For Lugerholsterrepair: I feel certain you know this guy or at least his clone.
TA

Jim Keenan · 07-30-2003, 04:16 AM

In WWII, some American doctors and nurses were issued the Colt .32/380 pistols for defense of themselves and protection of their patients. At one point I understand, that gun was not considered an "offensive weapon" where the .45 pistol was. Apparently, that was changed as the above posts indicate.

Jim

lugerholsterrepair · 07-30-2003, 04:24 AM

Tom, Interesting thread. Yes I knew this man, and many like him. They were the staff on which we leaned many times in the deep dark jungles. While many of the squads were segregated to themselves Doc circulated freely among us all, despensing one thing or another and making us all feel as if someone really cared about us in a more personal way. Yes they were armed with the ole 1911 .45 and I am sure would not hesitate to use it if it became necessary. They were brave men often exposing themselves at great risk to tend to one of us in deep trouble. The medics in the field with us will not be forgotten by those of us who were there.

And Tom, You reminded me of all the stuff we had to carry...I can look back and see the cherries who came out to the field with their rucks filled with personal junk..That soon went into the sump and they were thinking of sawing off the handle of their toothbrush!

Jerry Burney

Hugh · 07-30-2003, 03:44 PM

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> Bruce,

I found your post very interesting, as I have a 1911 Erfurt with the gripstrap marked 12.T.S.1.205. It was later reissued, as these markings are "lined out" and the gripstrap is restamped 102.R.6.1, for 102nd Regiment 6th Company weapon #1. My pistol is the March "centerfold" in Jan Stills 1999 Luger Battle Calendar. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

<img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> If you ever decide to sell this Luger, please contact me.

Hugh

brucew · 07-31-2003, 12:28 AM

Hugh,

I just acquired it, but will keep it in mind.

Best regards, Bruce

Harry · 08-22-2003, 11:32 PM

I found the 1912 Erfurt with the train ambulance grips interesting as I also have one. The grip strap on mine is marked B.1.T.S.2.243 which means the Bavarian 1st Train Batallion Medical Company 2. It comes with a 1911 dated Bavarian made holster marked AWM (Artillery Workshop Munich)

07-28-2003, 04:40 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I think there is something in the Geneva conventions that prohibits the arming of medics in sanctioned combat but I don't have time to research it today... perhaps someone else knows. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-28-2003, 06:44 PM	#7
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My daughter's father in law was a medic in WWII. He has repeatedly told me that US medics in WWII were never never armed. That said, if I were a medic today in Iraq I would be armed (at least with a 100 year old Luger--or preferably my Para P-14). __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-28-2003, 08:32 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	I believe that they are allowed to be armed with a handgun, for defensive purposes only. Rifles and carbines are verboten, but pistols are okay. If you have not read Our Fathers Flag, about the 2nd raising of the flag on Iwo Jima, then you need to read it. The man that wrote it is the son of one of the raisers and he was a Navy Medic, thought by being a medic he could keep out of the thick of the action, so of course he was assigned to the Marines. Great story, medics always have my admiration. Ed Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-29-2003, 10:16 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Yup, thats it Big Norm, knew I shouldn't have tried to go from memory. Its a good read all right, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-30-2003, 04:24 AM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Tom, Interesting thread. Yes I knew this man, and many like him. They were the staff on which we leaned many times in the deep dark jungles. While many of the squads were segregated to themselves Doc circulated freely among us all, despensing one thing or another and making us all feel as if someone really cared about us in a more personal way. Yes they were armed with the ole 1911 .45 and I am sure would not hesitate to use it if it became necessary. They were brave men often exposing themselves at great risk to tend to one of us in deep trouble. The medics in the field with us will not be forgotten by those of us who were there. And Tom, You reminded me of all the stuff we had to carry...I can look back and see the cherries who came out to the field with their rucks filled with personal junk..That soon went into the sump and they were thinking of sawing off the handle of their toothbrush! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-28-2003, 01:21 AM	#1
brucew User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1912 Erfurt I have a 1912 Erfirt with unit markings 12.T.S.3.129. Can anyone out there translate this for me? I am amazed at the knowledge displayed in these forums (or forii). Bruce

07-28-2003, 01:51 AM	#2
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Bruce, Judging by the references in Jeff Noll's "The Imperial German Regimental Marking" I would guess that it means: Train-Bataillon 12, SanitÃ?Â¤ts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe # 129 Someone correct me if I'm wrong! Best Regards, Brandon

07-28-2003, 02:16 AM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Brandon, You have it right. These are fairly rare Lugers as they were carried by the medics who evacuated (via train) casualties from the front. The analogy is "Train ambulance" Several years ago, before my concentration on Navy pistols, I was fortunate to find a completely matching Train Saintats set. it ws lovely and rare, but I moved it along to support my habit. Tom A.

07-28-2003, 03:28 PM	#4
brucew User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys, This Luger is dated 1912, two years before the war. Were train ambulance groups formed in anticipation of war or what? Bruce

07-28-2003, 04:25 PM	#5
renaissance User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am repeatedly stuned at the frequent references to Army "Medics" and weapons (Lugers and others). I had always believed (perhaps naivley) that Medical Personnel traditionally went UN-ARMED. Where was I mis-lead?

07-28-2003, 08:42 PM	#9
brucew User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The Geneva convention has gone through many revisions since the original one in the 1800s. The almanac briefly mentions some of the changes made, but does not specificly mention the un-arming of medics. Perhaps that notion was after WW1. Thanks again Bruce

07-28-2003, 09:41 PM	#10
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	http://www.ku.edu/~ibetext/korean-wa.../msg00050.html "Since 1940, the US has required its medical personnel to be armed. The medics in every unit in which I served certainly were armed, and did their qualification firings with the rest of us. There are repetitive tales from WWII, Korea, and Viet-Nam of medical personnel fighting to preserve the lives of their patients" http://users.skynet.be/bulgecriba/medics.html "During medical training, army medics received training in the use of the carbine and .45 pistol since some medics went to the Pacific war in which the Japanese had not signed the Geneva convention. Some medics in the ETO carried which were needed on certain occasions. Donald Ratliff, recalled how his 75th Division medics once captured a German in Vielsalm, Belgium. "One night in Vielsalm, Belgium, we went into a house to set up a battalion aid station. One of the men opened a closet door and a German soldier was sitting on the floor. He quickly surrendered when one of the men showed a .45 pistol". Although medics in the ETO were not armed, many medics carried pistols for self protection." rk

07-29-2003, 07:12 PM	#11
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Corpsmen in Viet Nam were all armed with a .45 pistol.

07-29-2003, 08:59 PM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ed, the book you are recommending is "Flags of Our Fathers" by James Bradley and Ron Flowers. Its a good read. I never realized that Iwo Jima is a national military monument of both the Japanese and the Americans and that its accessibility is limited. Big Norm

07-30-2003, 02:48 AM	#14
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, My platoon medic in 2/D/2-503rd PIR was Doc Valez. He humped his medic bag,(a good 20 pounds) plus all the stuff that a M-203 gunner carried in his vest (add another 20 pounds), plus the normal grunt load: 12 quarts of water, food for 4 days, 200 rounds of 7.62 MG ammo, 2 PRC radio batteries, 4 smoke grenades, 6 frag grenades, 2 Claymores and personal effects of a sentimental nature. Doc Valez's view was that if, and when, we got overrun, he would be the final protective fires. He was a dope-smoking hippie and a real challenge to leadership, but under fire he was one of the bravest men I ever met. He was armed and dangerous, both in and out, of the field. Such men are exactly what Steve Ambrose, my now departed friend, wrote about in "Citizen Soldiers", but Doc V was simply 25 years to late for Steve. Tom A. PS: For Lugerholsterrepair: I feel certain you know this guy or at least his clone. TA

07-30-2003, 04:16 AM	#15
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	In WWII, some American doctors and nurses were issued the Colt .32/380 pistols for defense of themselves and protection of their patients. At one point I understand, that gun was not considered an "offensive weapon" where the .45 pistol was. Apparently, that was changed as the above posts indicate. Jim

07-30-2003, 03:44 PM	#17
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> Bruce, I found your post very interesting, as I have a 1911 Erfurt with the gripstrap marked 12.T.S.1.205. It was later reissued, as these markings are "lined out" and the gripstrap is restamped 102.R.6.1, for 102nd Regiment 6th Company weapon #1. My pistol is the March "centerfold" in Jan Stills 1999 Luger Battle Calendar. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> If you ever decide to sell this Luger, please contact me. Hugh __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-31-2003, 12:28 AM	#18
brucew User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hugh, I just acquired it, but will keep it in mind. Best regards, Bruce

08-22-2003, 11:32 PM	#19
Harry User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Los Altos, CA Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I found the 1912 Erfurt with the train ambulance grips interesting as I also have one. The grip strap on mine is marked B.1.T.S.2.243 which means the Bavarian 1st Train Batallion Medical Company 2. It comes with a 1911 dated Bavarian made holster marked AWM (Artillery Workshop Munich)