To match (or not to match)here is the question

Roadkill · 09-11-2002, 12:56 PM

Just thinking, (I know that's not good for me), but is there any other gun in which matching numbers is an absolute point of value as is in a Luger? IE: "Colt, SAA, US Army Property Marked, 90%, original holster, ammunition and belt with correct buckle, sn allows for possible Custer gun, found in an abandoned trapper cabin in Wyoming with other period Indian artifacts, excellent historical artifact but NOT MATCHING, make offer."

RK

Navy · 09-11-2002, 01:30 PM

Hi RK,

I think that in almost all European military weapons, matching SN are pretty much a requirement for the piece to command top dollar. With US military weaponry, our arsenal overhaul system that has been in effect since post Civil War days pretty much eliminates US weapons having matched components. Additionally, the US didn't number many small components as a matter of expediency in production and those numbers you see on components of W.W.II Garands aren't serial numbers at all but are "Drawing" numbers.

Tom A.

unspellable · 09-11-2002, 01:47 PM

I am into double guns and rifles. It is interesting to note that in this field a good quality refinish, especially by the original maker, is considered to enhance the value of a piece starting with worn finish rather than diminish the value. With a Luger, even a commercial one, we seem to feel the value is diminished by refinishing unless it is a totally mismatched beater to start with.

Do we make too much of the original finish? The CAF paints their airplanes.

And why did they number so many of the small pieces on the Luger to begin with?

Johnny Peppers · 09-11-2002, 03:42 PM

As long as collectors value firearms with original finish, they will command higher prices. The more original finish the firearm retains, the higher the price. The rarer the firearm which retains a high percentage of it's original finish, the higher the firearm will be. A refinished firearm retains 0% original finish, and no matter how well refinished, will never command anywhere near the price of an original finish firearm in the same original condition. A restoration of a badly worn firearm will improve it's value if the firearm is not rare and desireable. A refinished Colt Patterson or Colt Walker would be worth much less than a pistol of the same model with no finish. A restoration by Del Greco on a rare grade of Parker shotgun will not be worth the same as a Parker of the same grade in original unblemished condition. Firearms collectors prize original finish, and the more the better. Condition/rarity/condition drives the firearms collecting market.

unspellable · 09-11-2002, 04:46 PM

If I have a Mauser byf all matching with 70% bluing and refinish it, it is worth less on the open market. If I have a William Evans double rifle with 70% bluing and have it properly refinished (I emphesize the word "properly")it is worth more. It's rarer than a Mauser byf and probably worth more than ten times as much. It's a different field of firearms collecting and a different ball game.

Speaking of really "original" pieces I was privileged to witness a Navy Colt come out of the original factory packaging for the first time. The bluing had suffered over the hundred and some odd years in the original packaging.

Johnny Peppers · 09-11-2002, 07:52 PM

The question was ask "Do we make too much of original finish?" It all depends upon the firearm. Some firearms are acceptable being refinished, and others are not. I for one would not have any 70% collectible firearm of any make or type refinished as we have stripped it of what it was and made it into what we wish it could be, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

wterrell · 09-11-2002, 08:02 PM

If a person just wants a Luger design pistol and not the 'old' Luger itself, why not buy a modern manufactured pistol. There are many 1970 era Mausers around, and the stainless steel versions. Buy them and you will have a shiny pistol and shoot it to your heart's content.

Or...........is there a 'lure' to the old Luger?

ToggleTop · 09-11-2002, 10:51 PM

I really think the numbering of small parts on manufactured items goes back at least to the late 1800's. In that period in the european countries things were essentially hand made and thus the parts were numbered to the item. Not all countries followed this procedure but some of the crap other countires put out wasn't worth numbering anyway. To have a Model 1879 Reich revolver with all parts matching is quite a blessing and especially if it has not been messed with by an Alabama plow boy. <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" />

Aaron · 09-12-2002, 11:03 AM

When it comkes to refinishing a firearm, I think we are trying to compare apples with oranges here. A refinish applied to a valuable working firearm such as a high quality shotgun may increase its value. A refinish applied to a historical firearm destroys is value because one has altered its historical appearance and has deprived future generations of scholars from deriving information relative to its past use.

wterrell · 09-12-2002, 09:48 PM

Bravo! Aaron.

09-11-2002, 12:56 PM	#1
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	To match (or not to match)here is the question Just thinking, (I know that's not good for me), but is there any other gun in which matching numbers is an absolute point of value as is in a Luger? IE: "Colt, SAA, US Army Property Marked, 90%, original holster, ammunition and belt with correct buckle, sn allows for possible Custer gun, found in an abandoned trapper cabin in Wyoming with other period Indian artifacts, excellent historical artifact but NOT MATCHING, make offer." RK

09-11-2002, 08:02 PM	#7
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	If a person just wants a Luger design pistol and not the 'old' Luger itself, why not buy a modern manufactured pistol. There are many 1970 era Mausers around, and the stainless steel versions. Buy them and you will have a shiny pistol and shoot it to your heart's content. Or...........is there a 'lure' to the old Luger? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

09-11-2002, 10:51 PM	#8
ToggleTop User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I really think the numbering of small parts on manufactured items goes back at least to the late 1800's. In that period in the european countries things were essentially hand made and thus the parts were numbered to the item. Not all countries followed this procedure but some of the crap other countires put out wasn't worth numbering anyway. To have a Model 1879 Reich revolver with all parts matching is quite a blessing and especially if it has not been messed with by an Alabama plow boy. <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> __________________ *********************** ToggleTop************* JustHappenToLoveLugers *************************

09-12-2002, 09:48 PM	#10
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Bravo! Aaron. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

09-11-2002, 01:30 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi RK, I think that in almost all European military weapons, matching SN are pretty much a requirement for the piece to command top dollar. With US military weaponry, our arsenal overhaul system that has been in effect since post Civil War days pretty much eliminates US weapons having matched components. Additionally, the US didn't number many small components as a matter of expediency in production and those numbers you see on components of W.W.II Garands aren't serial numbers at all but are "Drawing" numbers. Tom A.

09-11-2002, 01:47 PM	#3
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I am into double guns and rifles. It is interesting to note that in this field a good quality refinish, especially by the original maker, is considered to enhance the value of a piece starting with worn finish rather than diminish the value. With a Luger, even a commercial one, we seem to feel the value is diminished by refinishing unless it is a totally mismatched beater to start with. Do we make too much of the original finish? The CAF paints their airplanes. And why did they number so many of the small pieces on the Luger to begin with?

09-11-2002, 03:42 PM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	As long as collectors value firearms with original finish, they will command higher prices. The more original finish the firearm retains, the higher the price. The rarer the firearm which retains a high percentage of it's original finish, the higher the firearm will be. A refinished firearm retains 0% original finish, and no matter how well refinished, will never command anywhere near the price of an original finish firearm in the same original condition. A restoration of a badly worn firearm will improve it's value if the firearm is not rare and desireable. A refinished Colt Patterson or Colt Walker would be worth much less than a pistol of the same model with no finish. A restoration by Del Greco on a rare grade of Parker shotgun will not be worth the same as a Parker of the same grade in original unblemished condition. Firearms collectors prize original finish, and the more the better. Condition/rarity/condition drives the firearms collecting market.

09-11-2002, 04:46 PM	#5
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	If I have a Mauser byf all matching with 70% bluing and refinish it, it is worth less on the open market. If I have a William Evans double rifle with 70% bluing and have it properly refinished (I emphesize the word "properly")it is worth more. It's rarer than a Mauser byf and probably worth more than ten times as much. It's a different field of firearms collecting and a different ball game. Speaking of really "original" pieces I was privileged to witness a Navy Colt come out of the original factory packaging for the first time. The bluing had suffered over the hundred and some odd years in the original packaging.

09-11-2002, 07:52 PM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The question was ask "Do we make too much of original finish?" It all depends upon the firearm. Some firearms are acceptable being refinished, and others are not. I for one would not have any 70% collectible firearm of any make or type refinished as we have stripped it of what it was and made it into what we wish it could be, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

09-12-2002, 11:03 AM	#9
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	When it comkes to refinishing a firearm, I think we are trying to compare apples with oranges here. A refinish applied to a valuable working firearm such as a high quality shotgun may increase its value. A refinish applied to a historical firearm destroys is value because one has altered its historical appearance and has deprived future generations of scholars from deriving information relative to its past use.