Real damage

MikeP · 08-09-2015, 07:43 PM

I have no real info on this as it was forwarded to me.

Apparently some fool is going around testing expensive firearms with hot loads.

Curss · 08-09-2015, 08:13 PM

Good Lord, is the frame still ok?!

Ron Wood · 08-09-2015, 08:20 PM

To heck with the frame...is the stupid shooter still breathing?

DonVoigt · 08-09-2015, 09:05 PM

MikeP,
Did someone say it failed during firing?

Would be interesting to have some information if you can back track it.

sheepherder · 08-09-2015, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeP

Apparently some fool is going around testing expensive firearms with hot loads.

Send him over!

Sieger · 08-09-2015, 11:46 PM

Well,

Just another masterpiece butchered by one of the "Magnum Boys".

Sieger

Sergio Natali · 08-10-2015, 03:31 AM

Here in Italy there is a proverb that translated says: "the mother of idiots is always pregnant" ...
some things sometimes make me think that is probably true.

Sergio

hayhugh · 08-10-2015, 06:44 AM

When he is allowed visitors maybe he will give explanation, more details!

DavidJayUden · 08-10-2015, 07:42 AM

"Here in Italy there is a proverb that translated says: "the mother of idiots is always pregnant" ...

Careful, here in America "idiots" are another class of protected persons and you are being offensive.
Welcome to life in the P.C. arena...
dju

Lugerdoc · 08-10-2015, 08:45 AM

Time for a different barrelled receiver. I have a 1916 dtd one now in the For Sale section. TH

kurusu · 08-10-2015, 08:49 AM

Never seen this type of failure before.

I really would like to know how it happened.

It appears to have been a police pistol. It has the sear safety and had the magazine safety

John Sabato · 08-10-2015, 09:59 AM

More than likely IMHO it would have been a double-charged handload...that was already too hot to begin with.

sheepherder · 08-10-2015, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

More than likely IMHO it would have been a double-charged handload...that was already too hot to begin with.

Just out of curiosity, John, do you reload???

(Not being disparaging; I just don't recall you ever mentioning reloading).

Sieger · 08-10-2015, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

Here in Italy there is a proverb that translated says: "the mother of idiots is always pregnant" ...
some things sometimes make me think that is probably true.

Sergio

Hi,

The Germans have a good saying..."like a pig looking into a watch mechanism..."

Ha!

Sieger

Sieger · 08-10-2015, 10:42 AM

Hi,

We had a similar photo of a Luger that had been destroyed by firing some of the red hot Chinese 9mm through it about 2 or 3 years ago. The fork damage was quite similar.

If you value your Luger, please don't fire +P or +P+ ammo through it, as it was not designed to safely fire such ammo!

Sieger

kurusu · 08-10-2015, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

The Germans have a good saying..."like a pig looking into a watch mechanism..."

Ha!

Sieger

I don't know... Pigs are quite clever.

John Sabato · 08-10-2015, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Just out of curiosity, John, do you reload???

(Not being disparaging; I just don't recall you ever mentioning reloading).

I have all the equipment and got started reloading back in the late 1960's. I own an original RCBS A-2 press, and dies for every caliber I own... but I haven't reloaded anything for a couple of decades... never have time to do much shooting, but when I do get to do some shooting, I enjoy every bit as much as back then.

My comment was based on the number of pistols I saw back when I was gunsmithing that were the result of careless powder charges by both amateur and very experienced reloaders.

Thank goodness I never actually witnessed the accidents... only the aftermath. Seeing a S&W .357 magnum with the top half of the cylinder and top strap missing was as close as I ever want to get to that kind of accident... The shooter escaped with only minor injuries. I also saw a modern Colt .45 SAA in the same condition... SCARY stuff...

In the photos that started this thread I find it amazing that the "ears" of the receiver fork were damaged by the stress and NOT the toggle... I would not have expected the toggle to survive such a detonation.

Sergio Natali · 08-10-2015, 12:15 PM

That picture reminded me of those stupid experiments they perform with Glocks, of wich the Net is full.
Too bad that was a Luger not a Glock, but maybe that guy didn't even know the difference...

Our world is going topsy turvy.

Sergio

DonVoigt · 08-10-2015, 02:29 PM

It would very hard for the toggle to fail if locked, it would be under compression, all the force being transfered straight back to the toggle axle and thus the fork.

The fork broke at the sharp cut where the opening transition is, a weak spot due to the "corner" present.

If the fork was over hard, or brittle to begin with; then use over the years could cause cracks radiating from each corner, and a final failure- perhaps even with standard ammo.

We don't know enough about this to call it an ammo problem just yet, likely a contributor- yes; for certain = unknown without more info. JMHO.

rhuff · 08-10-2015, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

More than likely IMHO it would have been a double-charged handload...that was already too hot to begin with.

I agree with you John. I have seen these kind of mishaps(not on lugers) when the loader is using a very fast powder like Titegroup that has a very low loft, and even a max charge is a very small amount of powder in the case. It is easy to double or even triple the charge on some cases and have no overflow of powder. Fast powders don't play well when this occurs.

Also, it could be just a flaw in the forks from years of shooting hot loads, and finally just "gave up". I am not sure that I want to see the shooters face, as it may well have taken the brunt of the toggle train coming back. A bad scenario all the way around.

08-09-2015, 07:43 PM	#1
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Real damage I have no real info on this as it was forwarded to me. Apparently some fool is going around testing expensive firearms with hot loads. Attached Thumbnails

08-09-2015, 08:13 PM	#2
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	Good Lord, is the frame still ok?! __________________ -Chris

08-09-2015, 08:20 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	To heck with the frame...is the stupid shooter still breathing? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-10-2015, 03:31 AM	#7
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Here in Italy there is a proverb that translated says: "the mother of idiots is always pregnant" ... some things sometimes make me think that is probably true. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

08-10-2015, 06:44 AM	#8
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 882 Thanks: 848 Thanked 507 Times in 270 Posts	When he is allowed visitors maybe he will give explanation, more details! Last edited by hayhugh; 08-10-2015 at 06:45 AM. Reason: More info.

08-09-2015, 09:05 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	MikeP, Did someone say it failed during firing? Would be interesting to have some information if you can back track it.

08-09-2015, 11:46 PM	#6
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Well, Just another masterpiece butchered by one of the "Magnum Boys". Sieger

08-10-2015, 07:42 AM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	"Here in Italy there is a proverb that translated says: "the mother of idiots is always pregnant" ... Careful, here in America "idiots" are another class of protected persons and you are being offensive. Welcome to life in the P.C. arena... dju

08-10-2015, 08:45 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Time for a different barrelled receiver. I have a 1916 dtd one now in the For Sale section. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-10-2015, 08:49 AM	#11
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	Never seen this type of failure before. I really would like to know how it happened. It appears to have been a police pistol. It has the sear safety and had the magazine safety

08-10-2015, 09:59 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	More than likely IMHO it would have been a double-charged handload...that was already too hot to begin with. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-10-2015, 10:42 AM	#15
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi, We had a similar photo of a Luger that had been destroyed by firing some of the red hot Chinese 9mm through it about 2 or 3 years ago. The fork damage was quite similar. If you value your Luger, please don't fire +P or +P+ ammo through it, as it was not designed to safely fire such ammo! Sieger

08-10-2015, 12:15 PM	#18
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	That picture reminded me of those stupid experiments they perform with Glocks, of wich the Net is full. Too bad that was a Luger not a Glock, but maybe that guy didn't even know the difference... Our world is going topsy turvy. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

08-10-2015, 02:29 PM	#19
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	It would very hard for the toggle to fail if locked, it would be under compression, all the force being transfered straight back to the toggle axle and thus the fork. The fork broke at the sharp cut where the opening transition is, a weak spot due to the "corner" present. If the fork was over hard, or brittle to begin with; then use over the years could cause cracks radiating from each corner, and a final failure- perhaps even with standard ammo. We don't know enough about this to call it an ammo problem just yet, likely a contributor- yes; for certain = unknown without more info. JMHO.