S/42 K

[doppelganger]

(This message thread moved to the Navy Luger Forum 01/23/2003 JS-Admin)

This appears to be the correct forum for my question.

Approximately 1963, I traded a recorder for a Luger. It was brought back by the older brother in 1945 with holster and two mags (non matching serial #'s. Toggle is S/42; chamber is K; Knob is round and knurled; no grip safety; stock lug is present; 9mm; walnut checkered grip with no border; thumb safety is "on" in rear position with "Geschert" marking; proof mark type #43 on barrel and right frame; barrel length of 3 3/4; "Geladen" on left edge of extractor; bluing is approx. 95%; straw is approx. 85% to 95%; bore is bright and clean; all serial #43 match (except mags); eagle over M on left panel; property # O.XXXX on front grip strap; 8,82 under barrel near frame; holster has S over A, 1939 with spread eagle and name of "Klittch" in ink under flap.

Any assistance in identifying the pedigree and approximate value of this weapon would be appreciated.

Thanks,

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

I think something went wrong. Try again.
Lonnie

[doppelganger]

This was my first message. Every time I tried to use spell check, it trunkated my message. I tried to edit without spell check and it appeared to accept the entire posting. Thanks

[RockinWR]

Chuck,
* Unsure of what kind of recorder you traded; but, on the surface, it looks like you got the best part of that deal.
* To fully and accurately evaluate/value your example, some pictures will be necessary. Please post some clear/near-up digitals of the overall (Lft, Rt, Top, Btm, Frt., Rear, )piece and of the markings(E/M, O.xxxx, K, S/42, etc)
* All you have described so far fits the description of a "K" Date Navy (E/M + O.xxxx)made by S/42 (code for Mauser @ Oberndorf, Germany). E/M was the Navy Inspector's acceptance stamp. O.xxxx is the grip strap marking indicating assignment to the Marinestation der Ostsee. This was the Baltic Naval station headquartered @ Kiel. What are the "xxxx" numerals which follow the "O"??
* "K" was the code assigned for the year "1934". Germany was attempting a covert recovery from the ravages of unemployment. She was still under the restrictions of WWI's Versailles Treaty which prohibited her from rearming. The Allies were preoccupied with the Depression. Hitler won favor and power based on restoring Germany to prosperity. He viewed restoring the Military and associated employment as a prerequisite. Hence the covert action. Wasn't till early 1935 before Germany renounced the Treaty.
* Only a little under 11,000 "K" Dates were made overall. Of this, estimates of 300 are assigned to the "K" Date Navy variation. Only 17 examples have been reported per records I have seen.
* The barrel should actually be 100mm (3.936") as measured from the breech end of the chamber to the tip of the muzzle. This can be accurately confirmed by taking an unloaded pistol, with the firing pin uncocked, and inserting a pencil(Eraser first) into the bore. When seated down onto the breech face, mark the pencil @ the muzzle, retract the pencil, and measure.
* Coupled with the excellent condition you report, this makes this example a wonderfull find if truely all original and all matching.
* The holster - likely came along at a later 1939-1940 date. Does this 1939 leather bear any additional markings you can detect?? A picture here of the marking can be revealing. Are the WaA numbers under the eagle readable?? The "SA" may represent a number of things. If the "A" & "S" are intertwined with the S dominant, look for the letter "L" ( same size as "A") as well. LSA was a leather maker - L.Schultz & Co., Augsburg.
* You report the mags are not matching. Please describe & report the S/N's, eagle acceptance marks, and materials used(unblued/blue tin body, wood/plastic/alum. base plug, etc.).
* While S/N 43 (no suffix) is possible, please confirm the entire S/N to include a small lower case alpha letter if present. This can be found on the front of the grip frame. Assuring an unloaded condition(Toggle locked back, Mag removed, chamber empty), the number and/or letter will appear on the vertical machined flat ahead of the trigger guard and beneath the barrel.
* Per your knowledge or opinion, has this piece ever been re-blued/restored/etc.?? Where does the wear occur?? Any pitting of the metal surface?? Here's where digitals/scans are worth a thousand words.
* Guess we can't peel this onion all at one time. I've given you a bunch of questions to consider. Be assured, the forum members and the Navy experts are looking forward to your continued reports of this exciting find. We'll reciprocate as data is offered.
Respectfully,
WR

[MauserLugers]

Hi,
From what you have posted, you do indeed have a K-date Navy. These were all in a seperate group somewhere around the 2400 serial range -- both up and down -- without a letter suffix.

I'd be very interested in visiting with you if you would be interested in selling or trading this piece. I collect Mauser Military Lugers and this is in my field. My e-mail address is:

phl3586@blackfoot.net and my phone # ins 406/859/3808 --

I have one of these K-date Navy pieces, so if you want information I think I can help you out. Thanks -- Bill

[Navy]

Hi All,

FWIW,

I consumated a deal today on a similar K-Date navy rig, with matching mag and holster serialed to the gun. Life can be verrry good!

Tom A

[doppelganger]

WOW!!!
Thanks Lonnie, WR, Bill Tom A. and Tony S. I never expected such a rapid and detailed response.

As you have noticed, I am new on this forum and trying to find my way around. I thought I could just insert photos into this response (like email) but found that to be not so. After finishing this text response to your questions, I will attempt to upload several photos.

1. The recorder I traded for this Luger was a reel to reel Taberg. Yes, I think I get the better of the deal.

2. The caliber is 9mm with a barrel length of 3.965 inches as measured with a Micrometer.

3. The serial number is 2243 found in three places; on the underside of the barrel near the frame; on the left side of the frame and on the front of the frame under the barrel.

4. The number 8,82. is found under the barrel between the serial number and the frame.

5. There is a capital S (not a Gothic Fraktur)in five places: on the front of the trigger guard; right side of the trigger; top of the toggle near the rear sight; middle section of the toggle; top of the extractor;

6. On the front grip frame is O.1768

7. There is a S43 on the trigger plate, locking bolt, safety lever top of the extractor and trigger bar.

8. The letter K is found on top of the chamber.

9. An eagle over a blocked letter M is found on the left side of the frame.

10. Geladen is found on the left side of the extractor.

11. Top center section of the toggle has S/42.

12. Proof marks: The right side of the barrel and right side of the frame have a proof mark resembling the Proof Category 4, third from the left. The left side of the barrel has a proof mark resembling the Proof Category 4, first example on the left. The right side of the barrel appears to have two identical proof marks resembling the Proof Category 4, first example on the left (two dots over an elongated O with the number 37).

13. Magazine #1 with an aluminum base and blued metal carries a serial number on the base of 7892 and a scripted letter m. In two places on one side (top and bottom) is two sets of horizontal lines depicting an eagle with the number 37 under the lines. On the obverse side is the number 122.

14. Magazine #2 with a black plastic base and blued metal carries an etched number of 9438 on one side. On the opposite side in two places (top and bottom) is the same stylized eagle with the number 37 under the lines. At the bottom of this side if found fxo and P.08. One cartridge remains in this magazine and is marked as: 12 42 kam st+.

15. The holster has a large S interwoven into the smaller letters LA with the date 1939 found directly under the letters. The spread eagle to the right of the letters and date is hard to read but the letters under the eagle appear to be WaA on the left and CO or OO on the right. The inside flap of the holster has an inked name of Klittch perhaps the previous German owner.

16. I have been in possession of this weapon since approximately 1963 and have fired no more than a dozen rounds in these many years. I have done nothing to it but clean and admire it as a piece of history and mechanical art. I would guess that it has never been reblued or restored in any way. Wear is primarily on the muzzle and trigger plate where it rubbed in the holster. I must admit that I have no experience in judging quality and am only guessing as to the bluing remaining of 90% to 95% and straw remaining of 85% to 95%. I leave that evaluation to the experts.

The weapon was liberated by the older brother of a friend of mine. He said that he never shot it. When I first obtained it, it still had four rounds of German ammo in the magazine. Over the years, I have given three of the rounds to collectors.

I will attempt to upload several pictures (as soon as I figure it out) later this evening on perhaps tomorrow.

Resized by EBT:





Large Versions Here:
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/K-date-Navy-1.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/K-Date-Navy-2.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/K-Date-Navy-3.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/K-Date-Navy-4.jpg

Thanks again for so many and informative responses.

Chuck

[RockinWR]

Chuck,
* Thanks for your extended exam and further info. The pictures are a good start.
* By the numbers:
(1) If you're having withdrawal pains, I have a mint AKAI reel to reel I picked up directly in Japan in 1968. I know just what I'll ask for in trade !!
(2) Close enough. Correct 100mm length commonly called a 4" barrel.
(3) Good, Good. Fits exactly in the "K" Navy range of roughly 1900ns-2500ns. The upper left side location is referred to as on the front receiver. Jan Still's Vol.3,Third Reich Lugers has recorded 13 between 1934ns-2439ns on Pg. 106. Number has at least grown to 17 with yours being the 18th I've been exposed to.
(4) 8,82 is the actual bore diam. of this barrel in millimeters (8.82mm) as precision measured @ Mauser.
(5) The mix of Script and Gothic "S" and the S/N are correct for a "Sub-variation 2-"K" date" (collector's term) . These appeared roughly in the 1700ns-5250ns range. Generally speaking: Scriptic before; essentially Gothic after. There is a 4th S/Var wherein the small parts "S" disappeared. The Navy markings further differentiate this into being called a "K date Navy". Agreeable placements noted.
(6) As above, this O.1768 number fits within the tight region of known example Kiel Property Numbers. Good, Good!! Range of known Ostsee #'s I've recorded are O.1747 to O.2079.
(7) Agreeable placements noted. "43", as you know, is the last 2 digits of the S/N. You'll find some more in time. Have you "field strip" disassembled to see if the firing pin and the hold-open are also S/N'd?? Matching?? Tech section instructions, posts and threads will help if this is a new venture for you..
(8) As per my earlier post. "K"=1934.
(9) Jan's book has a picture of S/N 2044(O.1814) on Pg. 23, Fig. 3g with this E/M(3rd style) Naval Acceptance mark in this same location on the left frame panel. Noticed yours is filled with highlighter white. You do that or did it come that way?
(10) German "Geladen" = Approximately translates to "Loaded" in English.
(11) Per previous post - Mauser's plant code. The "S" is scriptic as it should be for this S/Var. Parenthetically, the first 3 S/Var. had the scriptic "S" in S/42 & Gothic "S" in the 4th S/Var.
(12) Rt. Bbl & Rt Rcvr - Rt most is the 1st Style Droop Eagle(d/E)Test Proof. Also should appear on the left side of the "knuckle" of the breech block (forward link of the three). All "K" date Navies exhibit the double O37 O37 early Waffenampt Inspector acceptance stamps. This O37 appears on the right, aft of the barrel @ about 10-11 o'clock. Good, Good.
(13) Mag #1 is a code 122 (Haenel Mfg.) accepted by Inspector stick Eagle 37(sE/37). Parenthetically, IMHO the 1st sE37 acceptance was mag dimensional/material acceptance to Spec.; the 2nd was functional & assembly acceptance. 7892m is the S/N of a byf'41 P.08 to which it was matched. The Haenel mags were an improved strength "extruded tube" with zig-zag spring mag over the earlier Type I Mauser Military mag of folded & crimped tin colored, coiled spring sheet metal mag.
(14) Mag #2 is also Haenel, the code changed to the letters "fxo" Mfg. code in '41. This also would be found in a later byf'41 or byf'42. An etched # on the side is not usually seen.
(15) Per previous post (L.Schultz). WaA400 accepted in 1939-1940 which fits your 1939 example.
(16) Whew!! Puff-Puff. Any capture papers?? Have you still the good fortune to ask the former owner or your friend for a notarized "story" about the history of this piece. "Who, What, When, Where,& How" was it captured and returned. Been a long time here in the States and it would be wonderful to add to the provenence of this example by recording a part of its history if at all possible.
(17) Onion is getting smaller. I think we all would like to study the pictures some for features/finish/etc. before going further. So far: Good-Good-Good. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
Respectfully,
WR

[doppelganger]

WR
Thanks a bunch.
Not interested in your AKAI reel to reel. Probably wouldn't remember how to use it. Sounds like a keeper though.

7. No, I haven't "field stripped" it in many years. I will get around to that and verify the serial #'s.

9. No, I did not use a white highlighter on the Naval Acceptance Marks. As I recall, it has always been that bright. I observed it with a 4x jeweler's loup and could not see any foreign substance. I guess I assumed they came that bright. I will attempt to send a close-up shot of it. I don't have a digital camera, so I have to make do with a scanner.
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/K-Date-Navy-5.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/K-Date-Navy-6.jpg

12. Yes, the same proof mark appears on the left side of the breech block knuckle.

14. The "etched" serial # on the side of Mag#2 appears to have been made by one of those vibrating tools that leave a series of dots. Perhaps etched is the wrong terminology.

16. I have never seen or heard of any capture papers. I never knew or met the GI who brought it back. His younger brother worked on San Nicholas Island (off the Calif. Coast) with me from 1962 through 1966. He said his brother brought back approximatey 5 pistols of varying types, dumped them on the floor and told his brothers to each pick one. I left California in 1967 and haven't seen or heard from him since. Not even sure that he is still living. I guess back then I had more on my mind (beer and girls). To be honest, I wasn't educated enough to even know what a provenence was. Wasn't youth great?

I just completed a complete field strip and verified that all internal numbers (firing pin etc.) are the same.

Thanks again!!!
chuck,

[Dwight Gruber]

The side-panel mark looks like similar markings I have seen in photograph, engraved into the surface by a rotary pantograph. Note the regularity of the line widths, and that all the line ends are rounded. There should be characteristic rotary-tool "swirls" within the lines. Do the grip strap markings apear to have been made the same way?

Reportedly, most of the Nazi Kriegsmarine markings were applied in this manner.

--Dwight

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

A GREAT find of a rare and desireable pistol. Worth BIG bucks!!!
Lonnie

[RockinWR]

Hi again,
(1) Shucky darn. I even planned to throw in the AKAI instruction manual!! Guess lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place. Just have to up the ante with a few vintage reels of the Bee Gees, 3 Dog Night, Eagles, and Cass with the Momma & Poppas. Saving the Beatles tape 'cause it has the White Album recorded straight from the new 33.3 plater.
(9) Guess the rays from the scanner made the E/M lighten-up where it seemed highlighted. Thanks for the close-up.
(14) You are correct "vibro-etched". As you know, this was not done by the factory. To tidy up another loose end: the "12 42 kam st+" round is a painted steel case(st) made to the improved drawing yielding a stronger case(+) and produced in the 12th Lot of 1942 by Hugo Schneider AG (HASAG), Eisen-und Metalwerke, Gmbh; Skarzusko-Kamienna, Poland(kam).

* Been working on "All Matching-All correct". It surely is "righteous" for all major attributes.
- All parts, even the grip screws, should display one of the "S" marks. This less small pins/springs.
- When you field stripped this yesterday, was the toggle to receiver pin numbered "43". I think your answer was yes.
- The grip panels should also be "43" numbered with a proof mark, and (I'm guessing) a form of the "S" inside. If the grips haven't been off recently, care must be exercised in their removal as the wood can crack if tightly mated or stuck to the frame. Most times it is best to start with the right grip using a correctly sized screwdriver so as to not mar the screw slot. Once removed, one can view the inside of the left grip for markings/numbers with a good light. Of course the mag must be removed. This approach will avoid the classic broken "chip" out of the left grip from around the bottom of the safety lever.
* As to condition: Trust you've seen the other thread on the Army "K" date on auctionarms
- Your blue/straw ratings appear reasonable; maybe a tad conservative. Subjective assessment at best, scans really can't do the pistole justice as the lighting can portray a false appearance..
- Double that for original finish. Looks right, everything to date has been right. Probably is right given your knowledge of its history. But, I have difficulty gauging this unless I'm holding it in good, full spectrum (sun) light. Maybe some of the other forum pro's would care to comment. Honestly, I'd have to be convinced this isn't the real deal.

* Value: Lonnie said it best - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">A GREAT find of a rare and desireable pistol. Worth BIG bucks!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">That's Big as in BIGGGG Bucks. To be upfront, I don't know what it is worth. With only 18 known, there is not a generous track record of recorded sales. A standard Army "K", in all but the worst condition, is a highly sought after variation. A moldy oldie # - Jan Still's 1988 price guide lists $3k-$5k for VG to Exc.+ condition for this variation only. As another plot point: The latest Blue Book states an Army "K" is $3800 in 95% and $2500 in 90% original condition. Then double that for a Navy with the E/M(3). Throw in a correct standard 1939 holster (in unknown condition) @ $200 +/- $75 & a extra/etched fxo mag @ $90 =/- $15 and one concludes $5200 to $7980. Some will say the book is all wet. They might be right as it is based on nearly 1 year old estimates on a rarely traffic'ed item. I say this is an expensive spread for a few % condition. Too easy to make a costly mistake. So, I'd recommend you have this appraised by a couple of knowledgeable/neutral Luger experts who can study this "find" up close and personal. That assumes you can find anybody neutral. I think most all would love to have this example in their collection.
* Congratulations & Thanks for sharing!!
Respectfully, <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
WR

[MauserLugers]

Hi WR,
In your review of "all matching and all correct", you have some mistakes.

First, the grips screws are not marked with an "S" of any kind.

Secondly, the grips may or may not be numbered with the last two digits as well as having an "S". They could have both an "S" and the last two digits, or just the serial, or just the "S", or completely blank and all would be correct.

Thirdly, condition dictates the value and until one personally examines a piece it is better to not volunteer too much information which might not be correct and influence the owner as to thinking the value is something other than it could be. For an example, specking, freckling and blue touch up can be invisible when viewing pictures and when examined in person can greatly devalue a piece if present.

[Navy]

This week I consumated a deal for a K-Date Navy rig with matching mag, SN 1xx, holster serialed to the gun. About 97-98% overall. It was and I think I got a pretty good price as the last one I saw in this shape without the leather and mismatched mag was $9000.

Doppleganger's piece is worth some serious money; I would love to have the opportunity to examine it.

Tom A.
Navy Fanatic

[doppelganger]

Whew!!!!!
It hardly seems possible that just last Monday I submitted what I thought was a simple question regarding my old Luger. I would never have guessed that simple question would result in so much information and interest.

My wife and I enjoy watching the TV show CSI realizing that much is smoke and mirrors however watching the clues unravel is entertaining.

On the other hand, reading of the daily updates to the "K Date On Auction" topic was more interesting than any of the CSI series. You guys unraveled all the clues just from a photograph(s)on the Ebay link. I don't think anyone could put one past "the experts". Who would not be impressed?

In answer to the last questions regarding my Luger I submit the following:

1. Inside the left grip is the numbers 43. No other letters or numbers. On the inside edge of the frame up near the safety is the stamped letter H.

2. Inside the right grip is nothing, no number nor letters.

3. There is nothing on the two grip screws.

4. The grip strap marking O.1768 do not appear to be made that same way as the E/M on the side plate. They appear to be stamped.

I believe that is all of the open questions.

I would be interested in knowing the condition of any of the other 17 examples of this model, if known. Is there any source to determine who this weapon may have been issued to?

What is the best method for finding a couple of knowledgable/neutral Luger experts to appraise this item? Would a direct sale be more appropriate that say an auction house or even Ebay (don't have a warm feeling for Ebay)?

I would like to meet all of you for a beer and let you inspect this item but that is impossible. I can tell from your intense interest that all of you have a mistress (Lugers) other than your wife/girl friend. That ain't all bad (as long as she agrees)!

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks again!!

chuck,

[Edward Tinker]

Get rid of it Chuck, it will consume you

So, box her up (the gun, not your wife) and send it on a tour of the US.

Nice to see you managed to pick up such a cool one, great to see in fact

[John Sabato]

Chuck,

Finding or nominating someone to give you a first hand appraisal of the condition and possible value of the Luger in question would be a little easier to do if you had identified at least the state you live in under "location" in your profile...

You can edit your profile and insert this information and it will appear at the bottom of your posts... or you can just post it here once where those interested could see it... and maybe someone will volunteer to help.

[doppelganger]

John,

Thanks John. That one slipped by. I live in (round at both ends and HI in the middle). That's BAD! I live in North West Ohio. I have updated my profile.

Thanks again,
chuck

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Chuck,

Doug Smith of FGS might be able to help you with an assessment...his shop is in Ohio. Here is the web-site link :

http://fgsinc.8m.com/index.html

Congratulations on a find and thanks for sharing it with us all here...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[doppelganger]

Hi Pete,
Thanks for the info. Looks like a drive down to Portsmouth as soon as the snow and ice ease up.
Have a good one.
Regards,
chuck