The Asterisk - My Theory

Marvin · 11-20-2001, 07:22 PM

Hello All,

Well, due to my busy schedule this week, I decided to write my little explanation/opinion to the mysterious Ã¢??AsteriskÃ¢?Â that is seen on the P.38, Lugers, and other German armaments in a little at a time and post it when I get completed. I have also posted this on the P.38 Forum as that is where I started a thread also. After thinking about Lugers having the "astersik", it needed to be dicussed here too.

I appreciate the different opinions, and that is what they are, opinions only. Even thought I have my opinion as stated below, I am not convinced it is the correct one by any means. When I was in Brazil, I wrote a little article on this opinion for NAPCA and immediately had responses that differed from mine. That is OK, and until some verified information comes to light, we will never know what this symbol means. I think we have had some good discussions and no one is right or wrong.

My theory began one day when I saw a photo on the Internet of a group of Allgemeine SS soldiers in a school classroom. On the chalkboard was various Runes/symbols used by the SS. When I got back home, I decided that I would look up the meaning of these symbols. One of these symbols on the board was the Ã¢??AsteriskÃ¢?Â. This symbol was one of the old Germanic runes, which the SS was reviving at that time. I donÃ¢??t remember exactly what the meaning was, but at the time the symbol made sense with the stamp on a weapon part. My theory is that the SS did provide labor to the various manufacturing plants in Germany and the plants paid the SS a small amount for each worker. If the plants were paying for this labor, to the SS, and I was a plant manager, I would want the SS to take some responsibility in these laborers providing part/s that were in specification. In addition to the regular Waffenamt inspection, I would want to know for sure the parts had not been sabotaged, etc. Since the SS were in control of the labor force as far as security was concerned, I would think the manufacturers would want the SS to take some responsibility for the parts their labor force generated? To do this, the SS would have a mark/stamp placed on randomly selected parts that were checked by them, in addition to the Waffenamt and plant checks? Since the SS was into the old Germanic Runes, the Ã¢??AsteriskÃ¢?Â was a logical choice to use for this random check.

In a nutshell, this is my little theory and a theory only. I do not espouse this to be correct, just a thought only. What do you folks think? I think this has been a really good thread and got some of the posters thinking a little about the stamps on a pistol. I thank all those who participated and hope that one day, the truth will be know about this stamp.

Marvin

11-20-2001, 07:38 PM

Well it is a known fact that forced laborers were used for making armaments, I have heard of them making artillery shells, small arms shells, etc., but I know for a fact they also worked in coal mines and other areas. It makes perfect sense that they would have been making arms. The SS used their prisoners for labor in many areas and who knows?

Ed

bill m · 11-20-2001, 07:46 PM

Hi Marvin,

An interesting theory. I totally disagree with it though. If everything took place as you suggest, where is the mark on all other forced labor items? Everything from shoes to tanks had some kind of forced labor used on it at some point? It is a specific mark used to designate something, but I disagree with the SS labor theory. Just my thoughts.

Marvin · 11-21-2001, 06:48 AM

Bill,

As I stated, it is a thought only and I don't even have much confidence it the theory. As to other items manufactured by forced labor, I wouold not see where any "double check" by the SS would be necessary, but with any type armaments, this would need to be checked more closely. Most other folks don't agree with this theory either so you are not alone.

Since my thoery was a little on the wild side I waited until others stated theirs. My honest opinion is that it is some type rejection mark; I would sure like to know for sure aht it is, but we may never know.

All the input from the Forum members have been excellent and this is what a Forum like this is for; an exchange of ideas, thoughts, and knowledge. Thanks all!!!

Marvin

11-21-2001, 09:30 AM

I regret that I have but one "Asterisk" for your theory. I admire your courage is risking yours.

John Sabato · 11-21-2001, 09:46 AM

as good as any other I have heard, but as you have stated, unless we find some documentation we will never know for sure what the mark means... I also think that the rejection mark, or at least a manufacturing process mark of some kind, is the best theory I have heard so far.

Thanks for some thought provoking ideas... and you are right about that being what this forum is all about...

best regards,

John

bill m · 11-21-2001, 10:12 AM

Hi,

As far as a rejection mark goes, you guys will have to explain to me why this mark is just on the barrel of Lugers and not other parts? If this is a rejection mark, it would be on other parts also, like the Crown RC on Erfurts. If the barrel is changed or refurbished, why the serial number and suffix and not an 42 or S/42 like the Banners have? The German Military had inspectors which inspected and tested these parts and if they were going to reject one part, they would be rejecting others parts also. I firmly believe these are the original barrels, and that they have not been replaced or changed or rejected. The German military would not have a rejected part on their military weapons, but would have replaced it with a approved part. Also, if this was a rejection mark, why is it mainly found in 1940 and a few later Lugers?

Marvin · 11-21-2001, 03:10 PM

Bill,

Very good point for the Luger as I have only seen them on the barrel.

Now, the P.38 has them on the frame, barrel locking lug area, slide, and I don't remember off hand if there were any on the lockling block. This does make sense about your theory of a different meaning from Mauser Lugers and the 3 P.38 manufacturers meaning.

I also agree that the parts with the stamp were not replacement parts. As to why only a few early Lugers, I have no idea except my "theory" of about the SS & forced labor with this early period not having very much forced labor in the work force, and as the war progressed, more labor was required. If my memory serves me correct, the Luger I have with the "asterisk is a 1940 or 1941 pistol.

Marvin

Aaron · 11-21-2001, 04:51 PM

I have never see the asterisk stamped on more than one part of a pistol. If I am correct in assuming this is always the case, then the asterisk cannot be a part rejection mark, as it stands to reason there would have been some pistols which had more than one rejected part. Has anyone seen more than one part so marked on the same pistol?

Marvin · 11-21-2001, 06:33 PM

Aaron

I have only seen the stamp on the barrel of a Luger, but on the P.38 they can be on the frame, barrel (above the locking block), and the slide. On the P.38 there are various combnations, but the combinations have been cataloged by Buxton. I have seen in photos the stamp on bayonets, MG-15, and bomb components.

Marvin

11-21-2001, 10:37 PM

Thats worth a good belly laugh.

Yes it only hurt a little, well worth it !

ViggoG

BILL · 11-22-2001, 01:38 AM

Marvin, what did your research on the use of old Germanic runes reveal other than the asterisk? Why the revival of 'mystical' runes?

11-20-2001, 07:22 PM	#1
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The Asterisk - My Theory Hello All, Well, due to my busy schedule this week, I decided to write my little explanation/opinion to the mysterious Ã¢??AsteriskÃ¢?Â that is seen on the P.38, Lugers, and other German armaments in a little at a time and post it when I get completed. I have also posted this on the P.38 Forum as that is where I started a thread also. After thinking about Lugers having the "astersik", it needed to be dicussed here too. I appreciate the different opinions, and that is what they are, opinions only. Even thought I have my opinion as stated below, I am not convinced it is the correct one by any means. When I was in Brazil, I wrote a little article on this opinion for NAPCA and immediately had responses that differed from mine. That is OK, and until some verified information comes to light, we will never know what this symbol means. I think we have had some good discussions and no one is right or wrong. My theory began one day when I saw a photo on the Internet of a group of Allgemeine SS soldiers in a school classroom. On the chalkboard was various Runes/symbols used by the SS. When I got back home, I decided that I would look up the meaning of these symbols. One of these symbols on the board was the Ã¢??AsteriskÃ¢?Â. This symbol was one of the old Germanic runes, which the SS was reviving at that time. I donÃ¢??t remember exactly what the meaning was, but at the time the symbol made sense with the stamp on a weapon part. My theory is that the SS did provide labor to the various manufacturing plants in Germany and the plants paid the SS a small amount for each worker. If the plants were paying for this labor, to the SS, and I was a plant manager, I would want the SS to take some responsibility in these laborers providing part/s that were in specification. In addition to the regular Waffenamt inspection, I would want to know for sure the parts had not been sabotaged, etc. Since the SS were in control of the labor force as far as security was concerned, I would think the manufacturers would want the SS to take some responsibility for the parts their labor force generated? To do this, the SS would have a mark/stamp placed on randomly selected parts that were checked by them, in addition to the Waffenamt and plant checks? Since the SS was into the old Germanic Runes, the Ã¢??AsteriskÃ¢?Â was a logical choice to use for this random check. In a nutshell, this is my little theory and a theory only. I do not espouse this to be correct, just a thought only. What do you folks think? I think this has been a really good thread and got some of the posters thinking a little about the stamps on a pistol. I thank all those who participated and hope that one day, the truth will be know about this stamp. Marvin

11-20-2001, 07:38 PM	#2
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Asterisk - My Theory Well it is a known fact that forced laborers were used for making armaments, I have heard of them making artillery shells, small arms shells, etc., but I know for a fact they also worked in coal mines and other areas. It makes perfect sense that they would have been making arms. The SS used their prisoners for labor in many areas and who knows? Ed

11-20-2001, 07:46 PM	#3
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The Asterisk - My Theory Hi Marvin, An interesting theory. I totally disagree with it though. If everything took place as you suggest, where is the mark on all other forced labor items? Everything from shoes to tanks had some kind of forced labor used on it at some point? It is a specific mark used to designate something, but I disagree with the SS labor theory. Just my thoughts.

11-21-2001, 06:48 AM	#4
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The Asterisk - My Theory Bill, As I stated, it is a thought only and I don't even have much confidence it the theory. As to other items manufactured by forced labor, I wouold not see where any "double check" by the SS would be necessary, but with any type armaments, this would need to be checked more closely. Most other folks don't agree with this theory either so you are not alone. Since my thoery was a little on the wild side I waited until others stated theirs. My honest opinion is that it is some type rejection mark; I would sure like to know for sure aht it is, but we may never know. All the input from the Forum members have been excellent and this is what a Forum like this is for; an exchange of ideas, thoughts, and knowledge. Thanks all!!! Marvin

11-21-2001, 09:30 AM	#5
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re:As Nathan Hale once said: I regret that I have but one "Asterisk" for your theory. I admire your courage is risking yours.

11-21-2001, 09:46 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Certainly good speculation Marvin as good as any other I have heard, but as you have stated, unless we find some documentation we will never know for sure what the mark means... I also think that the rejection mark, or at least a manufacturing process mark of some kind, is the best theory I have heard so far. Thanks for some thought provoking ideas... and you are right about that being what this forum is all about... best regards, John

11-21-2001, 10:12 AM	#7
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rejection Mark Hi, As far as a rejection mark goes, you guys will have to explain to me why this mark is just on the barrel of Lugers and not other parts? If this is a rejection mark, it would be on other parts also, like the Crown RC on Erfurts. If the barrel is changed or refurbished, why the serial number and suffix and not an 42 or S/42 like the Banners have? The German Military had inspectors which inspected and tested these parts and if they were going to reject one part, they would be rejecting others parts also. I firmly believe these are the original barrels, and that they have not been replaced or changed or rejected. The German military would not have a rejected part on their military weapons, but would have replaced it with a approved part. Also, if this was a rejection mark, why is it mainly found in 1940 and a few later Lugers?

11-21-2001, 03:10 PM	#8
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Rejection Mark Bill, Very good point for the Luger as I have only seen them on the barrel. Now, the P.38 has them on the frame, barrel locking lug area, slide, and I don't remember off hand if there were any on the lockling block. This does make sense about your theory of a different meaning from Mauser Lugers and the 3 P.38 manufacturers meaning. I also agree that the parts with the stamp were not replacement parts. As to why only a few early Lugers, I have no idea except my "theory" of about the SS & forced labor with this early period not having very much forced labor in the work force, and as the war progressed, more labor was required. If my memory serves me correct, the Luger I have with the "asterisk is a 1940 or 1941 pistol. Marvin

11-21-2001, 04:51 PM	#9
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Rejection Mark I have never see the asterisk stamped on more than one part of a pistol. If I am correct in assuming this is always the case, then the asterisk cannot be a part rejection mark, as it stands to reason there would have been some pistols which had more than one rejected part. Has anyone seen more than one part so marked on the same pistol?

11-21-2001, 06:33 PM	#10
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Rejection Mark Aaron I have only seen the stamp on the barrel of a Luger, but on the P.38 they can be on the frame, barrel (above the locking block), and the slide. On the P.38 there are various combnations, but the combinations have been cataloged by Buxton. I have seen in photos the stamp on bayonets, MG-15, and bomb components. Marvin

11-21-2001, 10:37 PM	#11
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re:As Nathan Hale - a" good belly laugh" Thats worth a good belly laugh. Yes it only hurt a little, well worth it ! ViggoG

11-22-2001, 01:38 AM	#12
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Rejection Mark Marvin, what did your research on the use of old Germanic runes reveal other than the asterisk? Why the revival of 'mystical' runes?