Ku Luger on Gunbroker

[Hugh]

KU Luger

[Marvin]

This guy must be crazy to ask a starting price of $3000! The one I have appears in better condition and I did not pay anywhere near that price! I guess it never hurts to ask. As P.T. Barnum said, "there is a sucker born every minute".


The magazines does not look correct either.


Marin

[Thor]

I noticed the mag too MArvin

I see that Simpson advertises and import marked KU: for $1295

[lugerholsterrepair]

For those of you who are interested there is a great one page article in Auto Mag this month on the KU luger by John Pearson. His theory is that the KU is for the German coastal police. The German word for coastal is Kuste, This arm of the service was under the Kusten, plural. (with oomlats) Thus the abbreviation of KU. He goes further and states these pistols were made by mauser since they have S/42 on the bottom of the barrel and W/154 acceptance mark. S/42 indicates a Mauser spare part and 1935 was the only time Mauser used the W/154 acceptance mark. So it is quite likely these pistols were not made by Krieghoff and if I remember correctly Randall Gibson states these pistols do not have the same machining charecteristics as Krieghoff pistols. This is a good article. Find a copy. Jerry Burney

[bill m]

Hi Jerry,

It is most commonly thought that the parts are "all Mauser made", but the assembly was Krieghoff. The Coastal Flying opinion has been around for a long time and has as good a chance of being correct as any so far.


Not many of these have S/42 or W/154 marked parts, as more have a 42 marked part. There are lots of fakes and reworked stuff in KU Lugers, so one has to be really careful.


One can not tell much about this pistol as you can not see any of the markings on either side of the receiver.

I would love to write a couple of pages on the KU but it would still not clear up the origins so I'll spare everyone the pain. I've heard this costal police theory before and it makes no more sense to me now than it did then...(about 0). The theory mentioned by Kenyon was the Air Sea Rescue or coastal Flying service...I'm really not sure that these last two even existed as dedicated organizations (maybe ad hoc?) but I do know they were not stand alone independent services that could level contracts on their own for military weapons during the Third Reich. My KU also does not bear a serial number on the barrel or the rear toggle link. It is however 100% period original and was made without those numbers...it may (was) made of Mauser parts be I am convinced that is was not assembled by Mauser and may not have been assembled at any real firearms factory but at someplace of lower echelon...ie arsenal...who knows?

I'm not convinced they were made for the Luftwaffe either but I do agree the inspector proofs are of the Luftwaffe style. Until real evidence is found the theories will abound but I would use real caution in what I believed. I will state that the KU Lugers are the most mysterious and interesting (in how they were assembled) that any other type of German Military Luger that I have seen.

I admit that I have not read the article and I will try and do so this week. In the mean time I would like to find out what in the heck the Coastal Police were as I have never been able to find even a passing reference to any such organization. I am familar with the Water Customs Police and with Naval (KM) coastal patrol units but not the coastal police. If they existed they must have been fairly large to warrent (pardon the pun) a direct special assembly out of factory for an estimated 5000 Lugers.

[lugerholsterrepair]

The Coastal Police could have been a service that is similar to out coast Guard. Just as the Anti-Aircraft flac batteries were an arm of the Luftwaffe so was the Coastal Police. Hence the Krieghoffe conection. Interesting. Jerry Burney

The Luftwaffe and KM are very well documented...I have several references on each that list all of the waffenfarbes and branches. I have never been able to find any refernece that connects either Luftwaffe or KM with any kind of branch that was labled Kusten anything....other some navy units were detailed with coastal patrol duties. The Police designation that the Auto Mag article apparently alludes to is even more enigmatic. As I said, I have not read the article and know that I should (I may have to eat a lot of crow afterwards) but I have talked at some length with a fellow who put forth this coastal police theory. This was several years ago and for all I know may have been the author of this article. I will say that the better one understands and knows German military organization, supply and operational history the better chance one has to understand the Luger (and all other German arms and equipment). Unfortuniatly it seems as though the reverse is more common in actual use...that is those who try to bring to light German military organization and history thru looking at Lugers!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bcc, This article from John Pearson relates a story about a collector named Joe Buffer who claimes to have been good friends with Luftwaffe ace General Galland. Joe says many years ago he showed a KU luger to the General and he immediately identified it as an abreviation of coastal police. I could perhaps scan this NAPCA article and send it to you if you have any interest. Jerry Burney

I may take you up on that (I really need more to talk to you about using your holster repair skills on a piece I have!)I am going to try and get the magazine today. General Galland was an excellent commander and pilot but his comment on the KU abbreviation means nothing to me about these Lugers. If Galland's memory was correct (about costal police) someone should be able to very easily verify its exsistance, I can not, but I can verify every "other" German unit in the Army, Navy, Luftwaffe, SS and Police to to Battlion size. I need to shut up and read the article, but I cringe because once something is in print in a respected publication it tends to get repeated and re-published and becomes part of the "lore". I attribute much of the mis-imformation I have written of in earlier post to this phenomenon. As far as all of my study and experience has revealed, it is un-precendented to have a German Unit's abbreviation used as part of a Serial number.

[lugerholsterrepair]

BCC, As I am only passing along what was written I really have no ideas or theory here. Just thought it would bring some points up that everyone could enjoy talking about. That't a great point about no Luger ever incorperating a unit designation as a prefix or suffix to a serial number.


If you have a copy of Krieghoff Parabellums Gibson points out that That the KU is often and maybe always an add on to the already existing serial no. Too bad that anyone who knows anything for sure is takeing a dirt nap. I wonder if any records exist in archives siezed by the Soviets and now are resting somewhere in the depths of a basement waiting to be discovered someday. Jerry Burney

[tom]

In the distant early 1970s, I was extremely fortunate in being an Army officer stationed in Germany. Through circumstances I will not go into here, I became an acquaintence of Albert Speer, who was Reichsminister for Armaments during the bad old days of the III Reich. Speer and I became friendly as I think he enjoyed my interest in history and he, the perpetual self-promoter, loved telling about his role in the German government.


On one occasion I asked him about the weapons program that was conducted in concentration camps.


He explained that the program was basically a mechanism that the SS, as "Owner-operators" of the camps, used to increase their treasury by contracting labor to companies producing war materiel. He said they were basically assembly points where components, which were manufactured elsewhere, were assembled into the final products.


He stated that camp inmates made, in addition to weapons, uniforms and field gear, artillery projectiles, assembled engines, etc.


I inquired about small arms and he said that the small arms program was basically two separate programs. One was a pure assembly program for new weapons and one was an overhaul/rebuild program for weapons that were needing overhaul.


He mentioned that the overhauled weapons were assembled from whatever parts that were available from many sources and they were individually marked to identify them as being overhauled.


I would opine that this is a reasonable theory as to the origin of the Ku prefix. It certainly makes as much sense as attributing the prefix to some phantom organization that seems to have escaped being documented in any III Reich history book.


FWIW,


Tom

[John Sabato]

I would love to hear about the circumstances surrounding your acquaintenceship with Herr Speer... I'll bet your experiences would fill a book!


Hope to meet you at Ralph Shattuck's in March!


-regards,


John

That is good information and is supported by other sources that detail WWII German small arms reclaimation efforts. I find these weapons that lived two of more lifes very compelling. I think (for what it worth) I agree with what you have put forth. There were really two styles of KU assembly, one was more crude, esp. in regard to oversize numbers than the other. As I said, my KU was never numbered on the barrel or rear toggle link....which indicates in part that it was not factory level work, workers, or inspectors involved. The Luftwaffe inspector stamps that came with Luftwaffe inspectors! May have been used at the camp related assembly endever simply because they were avaiable and knew Luger acceptance standards ( I would bet that some of these guys came from Kregoff because they were not that busy circa 43 -44 inspecting the handfull of Lugers a year made by them at that date! As to who got these KU Lugers it could have been anybody. I will say that much of the camp assembled small arms went to the W-SS.

Anyway thanks again for the post and information.

[John Sabato]

[lugerholsterrepair]

Tom, If this theory is to have any chance of plausibility wouldn't you think the Ku must be indicitave of something?Jerry

[tom]

Hi Jerry,


I feel certain that it (Ku prefix) has meaning in German; that is the nature of Germans...they love long word combinations which they then promptly abbreviate or turn into acronyms...Flugzeugabwehrkannone=FLAK.


Unfortunately, my command of Deutsche is inadequate for me to even speculate as to what the correct meaning might be. Is there a German word or phrase that means "repaired" or ""overhauled" or "Secondary issue", etc that starts with Ku?


BTFOOM!


Tom

[Jim]

Anybody have a theory as to why some are prefix and some are suffix??