1918 Erfurt ???

nor1918 · 07-25-2005, 02:37 PM

I am thinking of getting what is purported to be a 1918 Erfurt but I have some concerns. The gun is clean and appears to have all matching serial numbers except the trigger and it appears to be one of the earlier narrower type. The gun is virtually 100% blued in the places it is supposed to be blued and straw colored on the parts that are supposed to be straw. The two things that cause me some concern is the almost perfect blue job combined with the fact that is says Erfurt on the slide when the proof marks on the receiver match those shown in the "Technical Information" section, in "Proof2" as number 15, not number 16. (See photo) This would indicate a DWM Luger. Has anyone seen the mismatch of markings as shown in the enclosed photo or is this what is meant by "Minor Varients noted."?

Comments appreciated.

Bob

Dwight Gruber · 07-25-2005, 10:03 PM

"...is this what is meant by 'Minor Varients noted.'?"

This is what meant by "re-blued parts gun."

Seriously, though...the identification sheet is deficient in one respect which is important to you right now. The crucial difference in receiver marks is the difference in the proof eagle, which I have illustrated here:

An Erfurt-manufactured frame will have an inspector's mark on the front of the trigger guard:

If you go to this link http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=Erfurt you will see a profile which clearly shows the panoply of marks one expects to see on an Erfurt Luger.

Let lus know what you determine.

--Dwight

nor1918 · 07-26-2005, 04:36 PM

Dwight, I tried to add a photo to my original post but I must have done something wrong. I will try again with a smaller file with a size less than 1100x1100. Hopefully you will be able to see the proof marks then. Also, the only mark on the front of the trigger guard is a small script "h".

Thanks;
Bob

Dwight Gruber · 07-26-2005, 11:56 PM

Bob,

What you have pictured here is definitely a DWM receiver holding an Erfurt toggle train. An additonal characteristic, which is just out of your photo, is the front edge of the top of the receiver. All Erfurt receivers after 1914 were cut with a flattened area for an Artilley rear sight; DWM did not follow this practice.

On the frame, if the script letter is right under the serial number, it is part of the number itself--the letter suffix. If there is not a crown/letter directly on the front of the trigger guard it is not an Erfurt frame.

I suspect that you understand this, but if you are looking for a collection-quality Luger this is not the one.

--Dwight

nor1918 · 07-27-2005, 07:57 AM

Dwight, you have confirmed what I thought. What I am really looking for is a nice navy luger and I would like to find someone that would like to trade it for an early 1851 Colt Navy/Navy (i.e. - a Navy that was actually issued to the US Navy) or a London Navy.

lugerholsterrepair · 07-28-2005, 01:51 AM

Bob, I would be an odd bird indeed to find on this Forum a person who would trade a German Imperial Navy pistol for any kind of Colt! Maybe one out there though...Good Luck! Jerry Burney

tudorbug · 07-28-2005, 09:36 AM

Might the early Colt or London Navy be for sale?

David

nor1918 · 07-30-2005, 06:11 AM

Jerry, interesting statement - So you would turn down the trade if someone brought you an old Colt that weighed about 4-1/2 pounds and had a serial number like " C COMPANY No 137"? :-)

David, I would rather keep them or trade them; not sell them.

Bob

Edward Tinker · 07-30-2005, 10:06 AM

Bob, I think what they mean, is that you are on a LUGER forum

so the person is more interested in lugers usually than colts. I'd love a old colt, but there aren't that many folks who would know a colt like this, on this forum, as well as they'd know a navy to trade (value, if a fake, that would have a navy and want a colt)...

ed

Ron Wood · 07-30-2005, 10:40 AM

Bob,
How many Walkers do you have stashed away for trading purposes?

Rod WMG · 07-30-2005, 03:03 PM

Now if you had an original Texas Navy/Texas Ranger Paterson I'd try to fake...uh...find something to trade!

nor1918 · 07-30-2005, 04:54 PM

Ron, unfortunately I don't have a Walker. I was just trying to make a point that there are some Colts that are REALLY desirable, and I was curious if Jerry would recoginize a Walker serial number. I can tell you that when I was much younger my father owned "B COMPANY No 188", a gun now owned, I understand, by an Alabama doctor. The way that gun got out of the family was, and is, a sad story.

It was interesting going to the gun show today over near Dulles Airport. What Jerry said seemed to be very true in that the folks that had lugers didn't have any percussion arms. This was very different from when I was young and the Tennessee Gun Collectors Association was a going concern ( my father was a charter member(14) along with Turner Kirkland(40), Hume Parks(1), etc.) where there were a lot of tables with a real mix of guns. I guess I am now behind the times.

Bob

07-25-2005, 02:37 PM	#1
nor1918 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: MD Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1918 Erfurt ??? I am thinking of getting what is purported to be a 1918 Erfurt but I have some concerns. The gun is clean and appears to have all matching serial numbers except the trigger and it appears to be one of the earlier narrower type. The gun is virtually 100% blued in the places it is supposed to be blued and straw colored on the parts that are supposed to be straw. The two things that cause me some concern is the almost perfect blue job combined with the fact that is says Erfurt on the slide when the proof marks on the receiver match those shown in the "Technical Information" section, in "Proof2" as number 15, not number 16. (See photo) This would indicate a DWM Luger. Has anyone seen the mismatch of markings as shown in the enclosed photo or is this what is meant by "Minor Varients noted."? Comments appreciated. Bob

07-26-2005, 04:36 PM	#3
nor1918 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: MD Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, I tried to add a photo to my original post but I must have done something wrong. I will try again with a smaller file with a size less than 1100x1100. Hopefully you will be able to see the proof marks then. Also, the only mark on the front of the trigger guard is a small script "h". Thanks; Bob Attached Thumbnails

07-28-2005, 01:51 AM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,850 Thanked 3,100 Times in 1,426 Posts	Bob, I would be an odd bird indeed to find on this Forum a person who would trade a German Imperial Navy pistol for any kind of Colt! Maybe one out there though...Good Luck! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-30-2005, 10:40 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	Bob, How many Walkers do you have stashed away for trading purposes? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-25-2005, 10:03 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	"...is this what is meant by 'Minor Varients noted.'?" This is what meant by "re-blued parts gun." Seriously, though...the identification sheet is deficient in one respect which is important to you right now. The crucial difference in receiver marks is the difference in the proof eagle, which I have illustrated here: An Erfurt-manufactured frame will have an inspector's mark on the front of the trigger guard: If you go to this link http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=Erfurt you will see a profile which clearly shows the panoply of marks one expects to see on an Erfurt Luger. Let lus know what you determine. --Dwight

07-26-2005, 11:56 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Bob, What you have pictured here is definitely a DWM receiver holding an Erfurt toggle train. An additonal characteristic, which is just out of your photo, is the front edge of the top of the receiver. All Erfurt receivers after 1914 were cut with a flattened area for an Artilley rear sight; DWM did not follow this practice. On the frame, if the script letter is right under the serial number, it is part of the number itself--the letter suffix. If there is not a crown/letter directly on the front of the trigger guard it is not an Erfurt frame. I suspect that you understand this, but if you are looking for a collection-quality Luger this is not the one. --Dwight

07-27-2005, 07:57 AM	#5
nor1918 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: MD Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, you have confirmed what I thought. What I am really looking for is a nice navy luger and I would like to find someone that would like to trade it for an early 1851 Colt Navy/Navy (i.e. - a Navy that was actually issued to the US Navy) or a London Navy.

07-28-2005, 09:36 AM	#7
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	Might the early Colt or London Navy be for sale? David

07-30-2005, 06:11 AM	#8
nor1918 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: MD Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry, interesting statement - So you would turn down the trade if someone brought you an old Colt that weighed about 4-1/2 pounds and had a serial number like " C COMPANY No 137"? :-) David, I would rather keep them or trade them; not sell them. Bob

07-30-2005, 10:06 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Bob, I think what they mean, is that you are on a LUGER forum so the person is more interested in lugers usually than colts. I'd love a old colt, but there aren't that many folks who would know a colt like this, on this forum, as well as they'd know a navy to trade (value, if a fake, that would have a navy and want a colt)... ed

07-30-2005, 03:03 PM	#11
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Now if you had an original Texas Navy/Texas Ranger Paterson I'd try to fake...uh...find something to trade!

07-30-2005, 04:54 PM	#12
nor1918 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: MD Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, unfortunately I don't have a Walker. I was just trying to make a point that there are some Colts that are REALLY desirable, and I was curious if Jerry would recoginize a Walker serial number. I can tell you that when I was much younger my father owned "B COMPANY No 188", a gun now owned, I understand, by an Alabama doctor. The way that gun got out of the family was, and is, a sad story. It was interesting going to the gun show today over near Dulles Airport. What Jerry said seemed to be very true in that the folks that had lugers didn't have any percussion arms. This was very different from when I was young and the Tennessee Gun Collectors Association was a going concern ( my father was a charter member(14) along with Turner Kirkland(40), Hume Parks(1), etc.) where there were a lot of tables with a real mix of guns. I guess I am now behind the times. Bob