Luger Inheirited Part Three

XavierBreath · 05-24-2004, 12:14 PM

You may remember a while back when I posted about a 1910 Kurassier-Regiment 8 Luger my wife had inheirited. It would probably be remembered best for the M some monkey had carved into the grips.

The pistol finally made it home, and I have cleaned it up a bit, and replaced the grips. The pistol is all matching, with a double digit serial number. The defaced grips are numbered to the pistol, so I am saving them in a zip-lock baggie until I get around to cleaning them.

I will be putting up a page with all the little elements of the pistol shown, but I just wanted to reintroduce it and myself to the forum. Thank you all for your kind assist. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Sorry for the wait, the page with additional pictures is up. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> Xavier's Luger

Edward Tinker · 05-24-2004, 02:42 PM

Jim, that is a nice, honest gun,

Ed

Aaron · 05-24-2004, 09:50 PM

It appears that your Luger does not have a hold open device added. Is that correct? Do you mind posting the serial number?

lugerholsterrepair · 05-24-2004, 10:23 PM

Xavier, A very nice and as Ed says , Honest pistol. Kind of the old Gentleman to not only bring it out and show it to you but to offer to leave it to your Wife.

I went to your site and it is an excellent one.

While reading your description of the weapon unit marking I came accross a typo that you will be eager to change.
You mention that the weapon: My Luger, would appear to have been issued to the same unit as waffe (weapon) number 2. Kurassier-Regiment 8 was apparently a calvary unit.
Calvary is where Jesus died. Cavalry are horse mounted troops. Jerry Burney

XavierBreath · 05-24-2004, 10:24 PM

I'm not sure what a hold open device is........
The serial number is two digits.

RockinWR · 05-25-2004, 02:03 AM

Jim,
* Your pistol sure cleaned up nice. Congratulation.
* Don't know if it has been made apparent; but, your 1910 was part of the 1st Military contract for 50,000 pistols. Contract was signed late 1908(hence P.08).
* Per Jan Still, about 25,000 of the first pistols made on this contract have undated chambers. The are known within the collector's circle as 1st Issue's with the S/N range of known examples being 34-4828b. Then 17,000 DWM 1910 chamber dated Lugers were made. Yours is one of these. The S/N range of the 1910's is approximately 5107b-5358d.
* The original contract specified the 1st 3000 pistols were to be delivered by March, 1909 with 2000 to be delivered each month thereafter until the entire 50,000 contract was satisfied.
* Military Lugers were produced & numbered in blocks of 10,000 pistols. The initial block was numbers only. The second block had the number and a lower case "a" suffix block, third block had a lower case "b", and so forth. For this first contract DWM continued to advance the suffix block despite the chamber date year. Took till the 1911 chamber date to complete these first 50,000. In 1912, DWM decided to start each year by restarting Luger S/Numbering at S/N 1.
* These facts maybe of interest to your C&R buddy. They suggest your 2 digit 1910 has a suffix block of "c" or "d". Thus, yours was either the 300xx or 400xx pistol made on this contract. By contract mandate, your can figure the approximate month your pistol was made, delivered to the Army & then the Cavalry if you assume linear production and allow for a month or two to cover contingency repairs at DWM, deliver times, issue time, etc. Rough approximation granted; but, in the ballpark.
* Thought you'd like to know.
* OBTW FWIW - A suggestion: If the original grips are in a baggie, punch a small hole in the baggie top above the Zip lock & use a plastic tie wrap or string looped though the hole and the lanyard loop of the pistol to keep these original grips from straying away from its mating pistol. Mark the baggie with an indelible black marker noting the P.08 date, S/N, etc. Even "M" carved, they retain the original providence of the pistol including what DWM's marking/style/material type/etc. was in 1910. They are a part of the pistol's history. The value of this example is retained by having these grips; even if they don't make the pistol as "pretty" as your new replacement grips.
Respectfully,
Bob

XavierBreath · 05-25-2004, 08:28 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by RockinWR:

* Military Lugers were produced & numbered in blocks of 10,000 pistols. The initial block was numbers only. The second block had the number and a lower case "a" suffix block, third block had a lower case "b", and so forth. For this first contract DWM continued to advance the suffix block despite the chamber date year. Took till the 1911 chamber date to complete these first 50,000. In 1912, DWM decided to start each year by restarting Luger S/Numbering at S/N 1.
* These facts maybe of interest to your C&R buddy. They suggest your 2 digit 1910 has a suffix block of "c" or "d". Thus, yours was either the 300xx or 400xx pistol made on this contract. By contract mandate, your can figure the approximate month your pistol was made, delivered to the Army & then the Cavalry if you assume linear production and allow for a month or two to cover contingency repairs at DWM, deliver times, issue time, etc. Rough approximation granted; but, in the ballpark.
Bob<hr /></blockquote>Now that makes sense. On the underside of the barrel where it mates the chamber is the XX serial number with a script lower case d underneath, kind of like
XX
d
So that would mean Luger #400XX on the first military contract, right? Delivery time in the Fall of 1910, right? Is there any other place that the d suffix might be found?

Dwight Gruber · 05-25-2004, 09:44 AM

On Imperial era Lugers the letter suffix is found beneath the number on the frame as well as the number on the barrel.

The holdopen is the small metal part which keeps the toggle open after the last shot is fired from the magazine. You can check for this by simply inserting an emtpy mag and fully opening the action.

--Dwight

XavierBreath · 05-25-2004, 10:03 AM

Yes, I have the hold open device then......

RockinWR · 05-25-2004, 11:39 PM

Jim,
* Right(40,0xx), Right(Oct. delivery),and as Dwight said: On the frame's vertical surface forward of the disassembly lever and also on the barrel where you detected it.
* Your hold-open likely was retrofitted into this pistol after it was issued by a May 6, 1913 Army Directive. The Royal Erfurt Arsenal did the work and marked (small crown over Fraktur Letter like Crown/P) the right side of the frame beneath the upper frame rail adjacent to the hold open retention pin. The exact/approximate date of retrofit is unknown.
* Even had product recalls back then; but, this was due to a Customer upgrade "request".
Respectfully,
Bob

05-24-2004, 12:14 PM	#1
XavierBreath User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bayou Country Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger Inheirited Part Three You may remember a while back when I posted about a 1910 Kurassier-Regiment 8 Luger my wife had inheirited. It would probably be remembered best for the M some monkey had carved into the grips. The pistol finally made it home, and I have cleaned it up a bit, and replaced the grips. The pistol is all matching, with a double digit serial number. The defaced grips are numbered to the pistol, so I am saving them in a zip-lock baggie until I get around to cleaning them. I will be putting up a page with all the little elements of the pistol shown, but I just wanted to reintroduce it and myself to the forum. Thank you all for your kind assist. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Sorry for the wait, the page with additional pictures is up. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> Xavier's Luger __________________ Xavier's Guns

05-24-2004, 02:42 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Jim, that is a nice, honest gun, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-24-2004, 10:24 PM	#5
XavierBreath User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bayou Country Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm not sure what a hold open device is........ The serial number is two digits. __________________ Xavier's Guns

05-25-2004, 08:28 AM	#7
XavierBreath User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bayou Country Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by RockinWR: <strong> * Military Lugers were produced & numbered in blocks of 10,000 pistols. The initial block was numbers only. The second block had the number and a lower case "a" suffix block, third block had a lower case "b", and so forth. For this first contract DWM continued to advance the suffix block despite the chamber date year. Took till the 1911 chamber date to complete these first 50,000. In 1912, DWM decided to start each year by restarting Luger S/Numbering at S/N 1. * These facts maybe of interest to your C&R buddy. They suggest your 2 digit 1910 has a suffix block of "c" or "d". Thus, yours was either the 300xx or 400xx pistol made on this contract. By contract mandate, your can figure the approximate month your pistol was made, delivered to the Army & then the Cavalry if you assume linear production and allow for a month or two to cover contingency repairs at DWM, deliver times, issue time, etc. Rough approximation granted; but, in the ballpark. Bob</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Now that makes sense. On the underside of the barrel where it mates the chamber is the XX serial number with a script lower case d underneath, kind of like XX d So that would mean Luger #400XX on the first military contract, right? Delivery time in the Fall of 1910, right? Is there any other place that the d suffix might be found? __________________ Xavier's Guns

05-25-2004, 10:03 AM	#9
XavierBreath User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bayou Country Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, I have the hold open device then...... __________________ Xavier's Guns

05-24-2004, 09:50 PM	#3
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	It appears that your Luger does not have a hold open device added. Is that correct? Do you mind posting the serial number?

05-24-2004, 10:23 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,868 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Xavier, A very nice and as Ed says , Honest pistol. Kind of the old Gentleman to not only bring it out and show it to you but to offer to leave it to your Wife. I went to your site and it is an excellent one. While reading your description of the weapon unit marking I came accross a typo that you will be eager to change. You mention that the weapon: My Luger, would appear to have been issued to the same unit as waffe (weapon) number 2. Kurassier-Regiment 8 was apparently a calvary unit. Calvary is where Jesus died. Cavalry are horse mounted troops. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-25-2004, 02:03 AM	#6
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Jim, * Your pistol sure cleaned up nice. Congratulation. * Don't know if it has been made apparent; but, your 1910 was part of the 1st Military contract for 50,000 pistols. Contract was signed late 1908(hence P.08). * Per Jan Still, about 25,000 of the first pistols made on this contract have undated chambers. The are known within the collector's circle as 1st Issue's with the S/N range of known examples being 34-4828b. Then 17,000 DWM 1910 chamber dated Lugers were made. Yours is one of these. The S/N range of the 1910's is approximately 5107b-5358d. * The original contract specified the 1st 3000 pistols were to be delivered by March, 1909 with 2000 to be delivered each month thereafter until the entire 50,000 contract was satisfied. * Military Lugers were produced & numbered in blocks of 10,000 pistols. The initial block was numbers only. The second block had the number and a lower case "a" suffix block, third block had a lower case "b", and so forth. For this first contract DWM continued to advance the suffix block despite the chamber date year. Took till the 1911 chamber date to complete these first 50,000. In 1912, DWM decided to start each year by restarting Luger S/Numbering at S/N 1. * These facts maybe of interest to your C&R buddy. They suggest your 2 digit 1910 has a suffix block of "c" or "d". Thus, yours was either the 300xx or 400xx pistol made on this contract. By contract mandate, your can figure the approximate month your pistol was made, delivered to the Army & then the Cavalry if you assume linear production and allow for a month or two to cover contingency repairs at DWM, deliver times, issue time, etc. Rough approximation granted; but, in the ballpark. * Thought you'd like to know. * OBTW FWIW - A suggestion: If the original grips are in a baggie, punch a small hole in the baggie top above the Zip lock & use a plastic tie wrap or string looped though the hole and the lanyard loop of the pistol to keep these original grips from straying away from its mating pistol. Mark the baggie with an indelible black marker noting the P.08 date, S/N, etc. Even "M" carved, they retain the original providence of the pistol including what DWM's marking/style/material type/etc. was in 1910. They are a part of the pistol's history. The value of this example is retained by having these grips; even if they don't make the pistol as "pretty" as your new replacement grips. Respectfully, Bob

05-25-2004, 09:44 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	On Imperial era Lugers the letter suffix is found beneath the number on the frame as well as the number on the barrel. The holdopen is the small metal part which keeps the toggle open after the last shot is fired from the magazine. You can check for this by simply inserting an emtpy mag and fully opening the action. --Dwight

05-25-2004, 11:39 PM	#10
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Jim, * Right(40,0xx), Right(Oct. delivery),and as Dwight said: On the frame's vertical surface forward of the disassembly lever and also on the barrel where you detected it. * Your hold-open likely was retrofitted into this pistol after it was issued by a May 6, 1913 Army Directive. The Royal Erfurt Arsenal did the work and marked (small crown over Fraktur Letter like Crown/P) the right side of the frame beneath the upper frame rail adjacent to the hold open retention pin. The exact/approximate date of retrofit is unknown. * Even had product recalls back then; but, this was due to a Customer upgrade "request". Respectfully, Bob