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Unread 07-30-2004, 11:23 AM   #1
Pete Ebbink
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Post PX HK...?

Claims to be a PX HK luger :

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=21184453
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Unread 08-04-2004, 08:48 PM   #2
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Wonder who "jd08" is, that is bidding on this piece...??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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Unread 08-04-2004, 09:40 PM   #3
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Shhhh... Don't tell anyone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I bid - but have a few questions into the seller.. I'm not sure I'll continue - yet...

Also - it's NOT a PX Luger. Rather, a "parts gun" that "could be correct", depending on a how the answers come back....????

Now - don't tell anyone.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> !!!!
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Unread 08-04-2004, 10:09 PM   #4
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Hard to tell from the photos, but arn't the holes inside the toggles supposed to have a slight bevel on Kreiggies??

r
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Unread 08-04-2004, 10:13 PM   #5
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BTW, Good Luck John D.!!!
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Unread 08-04-2004, 10:35 PM   #6
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Hey Double O..!!

Great eye..!!!! But - unfortunately...

Not necessarily.... The "parts" guns were made from spares on hand in the factory - which included "parts" from several manufacturers. It's the "combination" of parts that's one of the keys to being "correct". For example - it would be "correct" to find a blank Mauser toggle link - but "improper" to find a "serialized" DWM link/ears matched to a matched "toggle train" - mounted on a "matched" cannon....

HK post war parts guns are a very interesting variation - but, folks need to beware that there are a lot of fakes out there, too.....

Someday - I'll try to put together a post that describes what to look for - and look out for in this set of HKs - if there is enough interest....?

In the meantime - thanks for the luck in this auction! I'm interested to see "what it is" - so I'm still waiting for some more info...

Best to you!!!

John
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Unread 08-04-2004, 11:03 PM   #7
Double O
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Question

John D,
Of course, the photos may lend something that is not accurate, but seems to me that the finish on this weapon is almost a matt grey, Like it was left nearly totally in the white.
Can you help us out here?

Ronnie
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Unread 08-04-2004, 11:25 PM   #8
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Hey Ronnie...!

Another great question!! OK......

The PX HK Lugers were polished and blued with some care, but this appears initially as a "parts" HK, which is a bit different....

What you'll find is that many parts HKs have a "hodge-podge" of finishes. Some parts may be a high polish - deep blue, while other parts are "in the white". For example - there are HK post war parts Lugers that have a frame "in the white" and small parts blued - and visa-versa....

As well - some of the parts HKs are all the same tone of blue, and you'll see the frame or cannon are over buffed so that the entire "blue" matched....

In the example that is on auction - it looks like it's a "parts" HK where the parts were pulled "as is" - rather then the entire Luger buffed/reblued - which gives it its mis-matched finish on the frame as compared to the small parts (which do not match, either)...

Hope this helps!

John
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Unread 08-05-2004, 12:30 AM   #9
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John D.
- Trust you noticed the damaged L/Hand toggle knob and missing (deep set?) link retainer pin. Wonder if the pistol was dropped?
- Noticed in the last pic a dark blue retainer pin for the takedown lever. This possibly a later aftermarket replacement as I thought these pins were originally in the white during wartime assembly.
- Suspect your eagle eye has already caught these (& other?) anomolies; but, I thought I'd mention them just-in-case.
- Neat possibility. Wonder if P.A.T. or Oscar(R.Gibson, TKP, Pgs. 119, 234-237) were standing in line with ole Hargus!!
Respectfully,
Bob
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Unread 08-05-2004, 08:06 AM   #10
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Hey Bob..!

Sorry about the delayed reply - seems that you were posting while I was sleeping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Remember, the parts guns were comprised of spares at the factory, and among those "spares" were parts that were "rejected" for numerous reasons. I caught the mal-formed toggle ears when I first saw the pictures - and frankly - it's one of the several reasons that initially lead me to believe it's correct. As for the takedown and pin - yep - great eye! Both the pin and the lever itself are suspect, so I requested close-ups of both.. There is something about the checkered pad on the lever that caught me the wrong way - but, it's only shown in one photo, so it's tough to tell.??? Same with the trigger toe..?

As for Oscar and P.A.T. being in line with 'ole Hargus.... Sheeessshhh - I wish these Lugers could talk..!!

Best to you!

John
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Unread 08-05-2004, 01:38 PM   #11
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John,
Many thanks for your indulgence, I appreciate your patience with this newbie. Very educational, and hope that you will do the article you averred to at some future date.

Ronnie
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Unread 08-09-2004, 06:24 PM   #12
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Well, just to bring closure to this thread (I'll start a new on later)....

This Krieg is now on it's way back here. Before I go into detail on this piece in the next thread later this week (if I have the chance) - I will tell you that the seller "Jim El Cajon" is excellent. All my questions were answered, and I'm cautiously optimistic this will turn out as an authentic Post War GI Parts Krieg for a few reasons.

Also - as a side note.....

Based on some research I've done (I know Gibson stated the 11th Armoured Division took Suhl) - but a "Division" is pretty damned "big". So, over the years in researching which Battalions and specific Combat Commands entered Suhl (and what resistance was like, who was first in, which Battalions stayed on - and which Battalions were forwarded to Meiningen, Sonneberg and Hildburghausen with CC A & CC B - and which went with CC R as they moved into Zella-Mehlis, etc.). That's important when trying to verify bring back papers and/or engravings, as in this case....

To that point, before making a deal on the HK - I believe I found the enlistment records of the correct "Hargus R. Tyler". I'm waiting for the National Archives to process my request (I should have those tomorrow) - but, at first pass - I believe I found him... His serial number was: 34 804 761.

Best to all,

John
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Unread 08-09-2004, 09:56 PM   #13
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Can't wait to hear the story!!!

Let-er-rip John D.!! <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

r
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Unread 08-09-2004, 11:39 PM   #14
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Geez, I don't know if I should say something about a Luger that I have or just keep my stupidity to myself. A while back, I picked up 30 cal luger that looked pretty nice. It have no serial numbers on it, anywhere. Except for some engraving on it, a hooded front sight, import markings on the chamber and some fancy, hand carved wood grips, it is a pretty nice gun. The price was right, it had a nice Russian extractor and an original, numbered, wood bottom mag so I bought it.

Now I am wondering. On the Luger in question in this post, with the exception of a soldiers engraving on the side and the grips, what made anyone think that this was a Krieghoff? I hope that I am not coming across as challenging Johns judgement. But the grips could be repros. The solder could have pickd it up anywhere. John admits that the parts could have come out of a bin composed of parts from different Lugers. How many extraneous parts must a Luger have before its not a Krieghoff? What makes this gun worth a thousand bucks?

I am worried about posting this message. I could look pretty darn stupid given my respect for John and his knowledge. But since I have a Luger with no part numbers on it, my curiosity has been aroused.

When I saw this gun up for auction, I thought, 'thats a nice shooter'. But not a thousand dollar shooter. How could the guy possibly call it a Krieghoff?
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Unread 08-10-2004, 12:38 AM   #15
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Hey Big Norm..!

Those are definitely NOT silly questions! Can you hold those until I start a new thread and answer some? Just a pre-cursor though "post war" Krieghoff's are highly desirable - PX HKs, GI "parts guns", HK staff assembled for specific GIs are the 3 major post war variations (Gibson note's 2).

I will tell you some dealers, when they are authenticated - charge well over $3-$4K. There was also a post-war HK PX RIG that fetched well over $6500 - and in fact, the PX HKs were assembled from spares and assisted by production of "new" parts from local metal workers where no spares existed.

As well - in the HK post-war variation - folks can also lose their proverbial "shirt"...

And oh - I'd never suggest using an HK post-war Luger as a shooter. Especially some of the GI assembled firearms.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Best to you,

John
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Unread 08-10-2004, 08:34 AM   #16
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Hey John D.,

In speaking with the seller, were you able to find out how he knew what he had ? Is he HK connected...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
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Unread 08-10-2004, 09:23 AM   #17
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Hey Pete,

I believe all his information came from the 2003 Standard Catalog of Firearms, and I also believe he is general gun dealer. Since I don't have a copy of that catalog, I'm not sure how they do the descriptions? It sounds like, based on his notes and listing - that they may lump all Post-wars into a "PX" category - where they have published the average market price of $3500 for that post-war variation.

However, for all that - he is a pleasure to deal with - speedy replies and well written notes (as oppossed to some "sellers" who provide cryptic answers, vague responses and send a note like it's an "imposition" to answer anything).

When this piece arrives and I have a chance to go through it and check it over - I'll try to post some further information. My problem is, though - when I start writing - I sort of do a "core dump" about "anything you always wanted to know about HKs - and never thought to ask".. So it takes a while for me to do a "review" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Best to you!

John
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Unread 08-10-2004, 10:32 AM   #18
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"Core Dump"!! Careful guy, you are showing your age. I doubt that many younger folks are even aware that there was such a thing as core memory.
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Unread 08-10-2004, 11:26 AM   #19
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.. .. Or even that memory originally consisted of ferite cores?


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Fritz.
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Unread 08-10-2004, 12:02 PM   #20
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...Or that those cores lost their "state" when power was removed...

yeah, yeah, the first "computers" (read that as "cryptographic equipment") that this old-timer worked on used core-memory and vacuum tube amplified driver pulses that used power sources that would curl your toes if it touched you when you weren't looking... seems like a hundred years ago to me. There is more computing power in my three year old cell phone than you could fit in the average house back then... and the phone will run for two days on a battery not much larger than a business card instead of requiring an armored truck to pick up your electricity bill payment... Those weren't the good ole' days... these are!
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