Reproduction Snail Drum - progress

[spacecoast]

G.T. -

I've been reading earlier in the thread and looking at Don's pictures, and it appears that the strut stays attached to the loading tool once it is has been attached, correct? Then, the Delrin block snaps over the drum to hold the assembly rigid once the loading tool is in place and while the loading is in progress. Hopefully I have that right.

I should have a reading for you tomorrow evening on how the drum fits my three shooters (or my non-shooters, for that matter) and hope to get it out to the range this weekend.

[G.T.]

That's what I was trying to say, but got lost in the jumble! You are correct... picture tells all... keep us in the loop! Good Luck! til....lat'r....GT BTW, one more thing, if the drum jams in a feeding manner, it is best to stop, clear, and remove the drum and unload and start over completely! .... WW white box to start with! Go get'em!...GT...

[DonVoigt]

No,
the strut does NOT stay attached to the tool.

Only the small boss is added to the tool.

It is way simpler than it sounds, wait till you have it and it will be clear.

I find it easy to attach after it is adjusted to your loader/magazine combination if you place the block under the arm of the drum and slide the other end onto the boss on the loader. Remove the same way.
If you want to over do it, you can adjust the fit each time!

[G.T.]

Sorry guys! I missed that first part about staying attached! Don, is 100% correct in that it just snaps on and just pulls off, once adjusted to the drum you need not make any further adjustments unless you want to occasionally tighten the block.. The block is made of black Delrin on purpose to be sacrificial and will get beat up a bit from on and off... but the guys who have them will attest, it makes the whole set up much more stable during the loading process!! ........ best to you all, til...lat'r....GT

[spacecoast]

Good news...

I was home this morning waiting to take my cat to a veterinary appointment and the snail drum package arrived. I had a quick chance to see how it fits in my shooters and it fits great (goes all the way in with an audible click when the mag release locks) in both my 1918 DWM shooter and my 1918 Erfurt frame that's been paired with a 1917 DWM receiver and artillery barrel.

The gun that doesn't want to readily accept the drum mag is my Alphabet commercial .30 cal (k suffix). It barely starts into the frame before it binds, so using the drum with .30 cal ammo may not be an option (for me) after all.

I have a number of other non-shooting Lugers, both 7.65 and 9mm, that I will try the drum in and report back about fitment.

Hopefully I'll have time tonight to configure the loading strut and learn how to use the loader. I was surprised at how heavy the drum is, by the way. A very solid unit to say the least.

[DonVoigt]

If you really want to try the drum with 7,65mm; just switch your upper to a frame that the drum fits!

Another "trick" to the loader, and I believe it is covered in the original manual of which you should have a copy in the box, is to load the first two rounds by hand- they require pressing the spring loaded follower stud in, while loading a round, then you have to manipulate the follower/round to get the second round in. When that is done, place the loader on the magazine, put the strut in place, and load more rounds, up to a total of 32.

Of course the drum is wound and the winder latched, before starting the loading process.

After the drum is loaded, remove the strut and loader, release the winder arm from its latch(slowly, and keep it under firm control). Tap the drum with your hand, a rubber mallet, or on a rug or something to "settle" the rounds in the magazine- this is important. Then if you are not going to use the drum right away, re-latch the arm in its slot to release the significant pressure from the guide lips on the drum.

[PhilOhio]

Guys, I ran across this thread last night, as I've been searching for people who know about original (and of course repro) drum feed issues. I've owned an original for about 50 years, never managed to stuff more than three rounds into it, and decided now is the time.

So about five years ago, I began hand making a welded-up loader, based on all the photos I could find; but to my design. Yesterday I finally got there, and the prototype works, but I have better ideas for a few minor improvements with the next one. And no, no pictures yet.

First, a suggestion. Friction is our enemy. Several of you who have spent hundreds of hours on snail drums say that bullets are the major source of that friction. Polishing and lubing are very important, but has anybody tried using a snail drum to feed powder coated bullets of the correct, original German military design shape? It has only been in recent years that we could buy a mold to cast these, from Lee.

I have found that my cast bullets of this shape (a Lee 133 grain mold), loaded to the correct overall length (OAL) eliminate just about all Luger feed and function problems, if powder, pressure, and velocity values are also kept to what I think were the WW-II German standards.

I've recently started experimenting with powder coating my own bullets, just for fun. They cut friction way down, create no smoke, permit higher velocity without leading, and are clean to handle. And they are inexpensive to buy from the many commercial sources. Again just for fun, I've even run off a batch of 1200 with both Harbor Freight Red powder and Alox on top of that. It's probably not possible to make a slicker bullet than this, unless you coat it with Teflon.

This is all theoretical, since I still need to get my OEM drum slicked up inside, remove and replace the last of the 100-year-old factory grease, finish the final version of my loader, and see how it runs in my stocked 1917 Artillery Luger with fine tune sights. I've had some of that gear for half a century and it has not yet all come together on the range.

I don't know much about drums, but mine has a "B" over an "N" on it, and a six-digit serial number. Would that be what folks refer to as a Bing?

[DonVoigt]

Phil,
It ain't the bullets, but the cartridges and the amount of friction that 32 of them create. Only the very "end point" of the bullet contacts the drum anyway.

Other than the challenge of building your own loader, why do it? Buy a repro, they work fine.

You are winding and locking the spring on your drum before loading? right?
You have taken it apart and cleaned and re-lubricated it also?

[PhilOhio]

Don,

In the 5 pages of thread I read, somebody was referring to all the friction the "bullets" create. It didn't seem to make total sense to me, either, but I thought maybe somebody here knew more about these drums than I do, which is very little. I think he meant "cartridges".

Availability of the repro drums and loaders has been a sometimes thing. I tried for more than 30 years to find a loader and couldn't, except for worn out originals at $1,500 a pop or so. Still retaining some of my sanity, I didn't buy one. But I collected a lot of pictures and could see pretty much how they work, except for the small part actually pushing the cartridge.

A couple years ago, I started making one, and almost finished, before giving up to the distractions of another project.

A week ago, I got out the pieces and started again, finishing it to the point I could load about 28 rounds and see that my concept was O.K., except that I saw how to do it a little bit better.

So this evening I went to work with the welder, milling machine, Mr. Dremel's wonderful invention, and made a completely new handle and lever link assembly. It works slick as a whistle, but is a little over-engineered. But it's just a hobby, for fun.

Yes, I wind the heavy spring first. And yes, I then hand insert two rounds. I'm thinking about designing a little widget for the loader so you don't have to do that. But again, only for the challenge and fun.

Non-shooters or non-Luger people would think this is all absurd, wasting time on a loader for a drum type which never had much real purpose except on an early German sub gun. And the loader is dangerous to use. I'll bet some young German farm boys lost eyes and suffered other injuries trying to crank that terrible folding lever. That's how engineers learn what not to do.

Yes, I did have the drum apart years ago, and cleaned out the grease. It was pristine inside. I will put fresh lube in it when I am ready to actually shoot.

I'm guessing that the shake and recoil from firing a shot is an essential part of the design for making these things work, when they do. But these drums were about Step One in the design of high capacity magazines for weapons firing pistol cartridges. They learned a lot about how not to do it.

The materials used were very good, and it's amazing how the springs and metal are still fully functional and up-to-spec after 100 years this year.

The other purpose? Our Second Amendment promoting friend Senator Chuck Schumer would say, "It's great; keeps PhilOhio off the streets."

[DonVoigt]

Well said Phil, nice summary.
And for sure, the recoil is important to the function of the drum; you can discern that from manually unloading it- if you don't give it a little shake or jerk, the rounds won't "come up" to the feed lips.

Many folks frequently call cartridges - "bullets"- I'm guilty of it myself at times.

[PhilOhio]

Thanks Don. Your comment on cartridges perhaps ordinarily not coming up to the lips during manual tinkering is going to save me a lot of time trying to correct something that probably can't be changed.

I had noticed this earlier, and then surmised that maybe it wouldn't do it in actual use. This sort of thing has been all but eliminated in later designs of just about all high cap mags.

The more I study this OEM drum, the more I am amazed that they got it to work at all, and that they fielded so many. That spring in the main drum is something that might not be believed by people who have not actually handled one and tried to compress it. It really would be interesting to know all the injuries it has caused over the last 100 years. If that skinny lever gets away from you, a lot of force is unleashed. I hope I don't become the latest casualty, but I don't plan to use it much, once I know it works.

In truth, the snail drum is about as useful as a belt feed conversion on a Baby Browning. But it's just so neat.

[DonVoigt]

Phil- when they work- they are awesome! And I don't use that word often.
I have four that work very well, though after hours of work by myself and GT!

The reason a million or so were made for WWI was the "artillery" luger and drum for the Stosstruppen. The first time you fire 32 rounds from a correctly functioning snail drum on a stocked L P08, one understands the use and reason for its being.

PS- Gloves are a good idea when messing with the drum, I've rubbed blisters on my hand from loading and unloading.

[PhilOhio]

Don,

I have a near mint 1917 artillery with fine tune sights, OEM holster and stock rig, new repro of same, another original plain stock, and several other Lugers. I know the pistol is very accurate with the stocks, but I look forward to using it with the drum, which makes it accurate times 32. And the weight will help. All I need now is warmer weather.

This is an inherently accurate cartridge, with the right load, and I have a bunch of guns firing it, including an MP5. Talk about accuracy...

There has to be some ideal way of holding or supporting that drum while winding the spring, but I haven't found it yet. I imagine the manual says something about it.

It's hard to comprehend that all this equipment is 100 years old and still so functional, in a fairly modern way. We have not advanced all that far. But the same applies to John Browning's 1911 Colt design.

[DonVoigt]

Phil,
I won't attempt to "write" how I wind the drum, but will say it includes taking up some movement and then shifting my grip and drum orientation so that I can use my right hand and thumb to have better control, and then press down the latch to hold the arm in its catch- then IMMEDIATELY close the extended arm of the lever. That way if something goes south that "scythe" is not waiting to break your fingers.

I worry not so much about the winding, but the off chance that the locking button may fail!

I'm not sure I could wind the drum if I were left handed though.

[PhilOhio]

Don,

That's exactly what I do, and why. That unfolded arm is my biggest worry, and I get it latched ASAP. I guess there are only so many ways you can wind these, and we came to the same conclusions.

Despite not having used the drum in a pistol yet, I have examined, wound, unwound, loaded, and unloaded it a number of times.

Phil

[PhilOhio]

I hope the results of my first shot at snail drum use might be of value to some of you also, as my self education proceeds.

I have to say I was skeptical. This is an original 1917 drum, but the loader is my own, made based on pictures I found on the Internet. I've never handled one. But mine is more heavy duty than the originals, machined from solids and bar stock, with pins and links held by C-clips. I'll post a picture sometime if anybody is interested. After Parkerizing, it looked pretty good.

I generously greased the internals with G.E. electric motor grease, which is long lasting and medium light weight.

I have some fairly valuable guns, and a personal rule is to never run a jacketed bullet through the bore of any of a Luger or Thompson, and hold the power down to what is necessary to operate the action reliably. And start low.

Although I cast a number of 9mm bullets, I use only the correct German WW-II shape for the Lugers. It is nominally 125 grains and comes from Lee's double cavity #356-125-2R mold. I size them to .357", for use in both 9mm and .357 bores. This works just fine, and there is no chance of getting a bulge in an in-spec 9mm case. Accuracy is also just about perfect, from a good Luger bore.

One of my favorite range loads, for target shooting in other 9mm pistols like the SIG P-210, is 3.5 gr. W-231 behind this bullet, but the energy is minimal for reliable action cycling. I wanted to see how this would work in my 1917 DWM Artillery Luger. I doubted that it would fully cycle.

And I have found over the years that it is good to load rounds to the full overall length (OAL) of 1.169" for Lugers.

So I may have been trying more variables at one time than is best, but I did, and was happily surprised.

Using an original holster and stock rig, I shot paper from a bench at 50 feet. Wow! It worked. And I had one big ragged hole, with 40 rounds through it in the end.

But a little honesty here. I had 3 - 4 failures to feed, all the same, and all caused by exactly what I expected. 3.5 gr. of W-231 was not quite enough for the Luger. The failures all resulted when the empty did not fully eject, but a new round was picked up...the important point being that the drum was feeding.

One thing I did notice was lead bullet nose drag, while loading. This convinced me more than ever that good recoil is important to keep these drums running. Jacketed bullets would not drag that way, but they are a little bit harder on bores...not much, but enough to make me not use them.

So I loaded up 50 more rounds of the same bullet, but with my Harbor Freight Red powder coating and a light Alox coating on top of that; ain't nothing slicker. And I boosted the charge to 4.0 gr. of W-231, which is still Sierra's minimal recommendation for the 125 gr. bullet.

I also loaded these a bit shorter, to 1.090" OAL, to see if that would help minimize nose drag friction on the upper part of the straight mag.

I wouldn't be surprised if the thing runs 100% when I have the time to try again in a few days.

[DonVoigt]

Why no jacketed bullets in a luger?
or a Thompson for that matter?

They were both designed to use them and lead bullets would be problematic for either, JMHO.

As you point out, the lead bullet drag issue.

And yes, the luger needs a standard load, not a reduced one if you want it to cycle.

Good job on the drum!

A lot of fun, right?

[PhilOhio]

Don,

You're absolutely right about both types being designed for jacketed bullets, but the harder copper alloy jackets do cause more bore wear. When both guns and barrels are easily replaced, this is no big consideration. When that is no longer the case, and they are valuable collector items where condition is everything, it's a different ball game.

In the Thompson, you are putting a lot of rounds out there in a short time, so the wear factor goes up fast. Thompsons have very shallow rifling. On the early and most valuable ones from Colt, barrels were numbered to receivers in a secret marking place. In guns worth $25,000 to $40,000 on today's market, bore wear is not something to be sneezed at. Some in our collector group pay no attention to this. I have a different opinion. I have seen enough worn out barrels to be a believer. Same with Lugers. What a shame to trash a pristine bore by shooting too much Winchester White Label or something similar through it. Sometimes fun has a price I would rather not pay.

I shoot what I own, even the rare ones. Good lead bullets, with good modern lubricants, cause no problems of any kind in any type of barrel. And they cause virtually no bore wear, compared to jacketed ones. With today's lubricants, I can shoot them in gas-operated high-power semiauto rifles with no problems of any kind, despite all the "expert" opinions to the contrary. I've done a lot of that. They are usually more accurate, and tolerances are more easily controlled and fine tuned. I've been making and shooting them in almost 50 calibers and weights now for 57 years.

I do swage a number of jacketed specialty types, but only for certain handguns and rifles in the 3200 to 4200 foot per second range.

I have a number of guns and, in my opinion, the Luger requires more attention to load tailoring than any of them. But when you get it right, it stays right. I hope my load research for the drum works out to be the same.

Fun? Yep, tons of it. And you learn so much, as must have been the case 100 years ago when they were designing these things. I've had my drum, the artillery, and the holster/stock rig since 1964, but was never able to shoot the drum until now. Been shooting Lugers since '59, and have three. Yet there's always more to learn.

And more fun.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Phil, Shooting collectable Lugers and you are worried about bore wear? DWM Artillery's are prone to parts breakage..I have broken a half dozen DWM Lugers over the years but never wore out a bore. Shooting collector Lugers is like motorcycling. Not IF you are going to crash..when is the question. I have shooter guns, Artillery, Navy and regular 4 inch pistols. Replacing parts when they break is fairly simple but on a collector Luger? You should think about re adjusting priorities.

[PhilOhio]

You're absolutely right, and I couldn't agree with you more. I guess it was unclear what my priorities are.

I have not fired that artillery in about 30 years, and the drum never. I'm not convinced that the artilleries are especially prone to much breakage, but I don't intend to try to find out. I didn't buy the pistol to shoot tin cans with a snail drum magazine.

I set out to make a drum loader, stronger than the original, to see if it and the whole rig would work together one more time after 100 years. They did. I'm satisfied. Nothing broke. That's the end of that. Some might think that was a lot of work for not much. But I found out what I wanted to know, at a low risk which I was willing to take.

I have a very nice S/42 which I bought with a shot out bore, just for shooting. I replaced the barrel. I may test the drum a couple more times in that pistol, to test my theories about bullets and loads. And then it's unlikely that the drum will ever be wound again. I do think that original drum design has a lot of potential for breakage and user injury.

Bore wear is real. I know how to reduce even minimal wear to almost zero, with the added benefits of better accuracy, dramatically lower cost, better reliability, and better component availability in tight market times. I didn't read it on the Internet, but learned all those things over 57 years of loading for hundreds of guns for almost 50 cartridge variations. So my use of such ammo in the guns I most care about is very purposeful and, I think, well informed.

It's about fun, but I agree with your thoughts about that fun not having an unacceptable price tag.

I have another Luger which has taken part in some historical events, and has taken a toll in lives. I've owned it for 40 years and feel it should never be fired again, after what happened when the previous owner pulled the trigger the last time, long ago and far away...before presenting it to me on a very emotional occasion for both of us. It's about keeping things in perspective, and I try to.

Lugers never seem to stop increasing in value, and so does my appreciation of them. I bought the 1937 S/42 about 10 years ago specifically for shooting and barrel replacement, because I didn't consider it rare enough to not do that. Now my thinking even on that is evolving in a more conservative direction. Matching numbered parts do break, and I have no shortage of more common contemporary pistols for play time plinking.