Japanese Luger Story in AutoMag... - Page 5

Aaron · 09-04-2003, 11:07 PM

I joined NAPCA a year ago after I was persuaded to join by a world famous dealer/collector, and he provided my sponsorship. I never gave it a thought, but he is not computer literate and does all his dealings by telephone and snail mail. I am not sure, but I don't think he even has a fax machine. Anyway, after a year I am terribly disappointed in that the majority of members appear to be elderly (as I am) collectors who wish to have nothing to do with the world of the Internet and e-mail, just like the man who sponsored me. While an occasional article is informative, by and large most of the information in the newsletter deals with very obscure topics. This information can usually be obtained from other sources by anyone with computer skills. Don't forget, the Internet allows us to contact many world class experts on an almost instantaneous basis. Very few of the articles and ads are accompanied by an e-mail address, and due to the delays which accompany snail mail, items offered for sale are usually long gone by the time you can contact the seller. I love the idea of NAPCA and the high ideals it strives to meet, but it needs a drastic overhaul and modernization, and until it accomplishes this I can see only a dim future for this organization. I will not renew my membership, as I believe I can find much better uses for my dues.

Pete Ebbink · 09-04-2003, 11:57 PM

Hello Aaron,

I joined NAPCA a little over a year ago myself and initially my impression of AutoMag was similar to yours.

But I then realized that there are some very knowledgable, older collectors that are willing to help newcomers who simply chose not to enter the computer-age. If you decide to stop receiving the paper-only AutoMag, you stand the risk of not benefiting from such folks...especially since these folks are equally "expert" as those who have joined the WWW-based gun-collecting community.

I have met several NAPCA folks that barely get by on typewriters...and have no need of PC's, but are a treasure-trove of info. about lugers and other pistols. Several are lucky enough to live nearby so I can visit them in person...or at various gun shows.

Also; after spending most of my adult life with PC's, I really enjoy sitting on the sofa next to my wife while she reads and I can enjoy the monthly AutoMag...

Just my 2 cents...on the matter...sorry this Japanese luger discussion went a bit <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Vlim · 09-05-2003, 11:05 AM

Hi,

Since the pictured luger is very undutch (no 1906 pattern, no grip safety, no dutch markings, dutch 'rust', etc...) and the text on the barrel is the same as on a Nambu, I'd place it in the 'fake' or 'gift' category. (leaning towards the first, I'm afraid)

Pete Ebbink · 11-29-2006, 03:41 PM

Digging up a very old thread...

This photo and caption of a Vickers "Mum" luger appears in V. Bobba's 2nd. book on luger, on page 83.

Maybe someone can help with the Italian translation of the caption ???

Dwight Gruber · 11-29-2006, 04:18 PM

"A Dutch Vickers bears an uncommon symbol on the chamber. According to some authors it represents a chrysanthemum, and the arm could have been sold in Japan, although the only evidence supporting this thesis is that the same shaped symbol is found on the handles of some Japanese swords."

--Dwight

Parabellus · 11-29-2006, 10:39 PM

Gentlemen,

Are the pictures originally posted in this thread still available somewhere?

Russell

c3006 · 11-29-2006, 11:01 PM

Im there with ya Parabellus this thread has been fascinating

Pete Ebbink · 11-30-2006, 01:01 AM

Russell,

I think photo posting from older threads naturally disappear after about 1 year or so. It has also happend over on Jan Still's gunboards, but that happened when the server crashed or was hacked.

Many folks know this and will plan to "clip & save" photos onto our hard disks any of the photos files that interest us. Our newer Members probably do not know this.

Here are two I saved from this previous discussion. They are photo scans from some of the Luger books discussed.

BTW...there has been no follow-up article in the NAPCA newsletter "AutoMag" since the first article that I started the discussion with...which became quite a lively "conversation" on the Luger Forum.

Also...if I recall...the kanji characters written on the length of the luger barrel are actually markings found on certain Japanese rifles.

Pete Ebbink · 11-30-2006, 02:12 AM

Dwight,

Thanks for the Italian translation.

Gerben,

I thought of you and your posting of 2 years ago about wanting to see a "Dutch" luger with the Mum. That is why I updated a very old posting on the LF with the Vickers luger photo scan.

But it seems some of our newer Members have enjoyed the discussion as well. That is good.

Pete Ebbink · 12-13-2006, 04:36 PM

BTW...another variety of a "Japanese" luger surfaced for sale about 1.5 years ago.

This one was reported to have a "Rising Sun" on the chamber (i.e. not the Mum...) and it was a WWII era Mauser. It appeared in a mail-out luger list at the Dodge City gun shop in Santa Barbara, CA.

Suspect a dumping ground for some consignment boosted wares...as 60-70 lugers appeared all at one time...many rare (and phony) in a shop not known to carry many lugers at any one time.

One of our LF members bought and returned 2 phony French lugers from this shop.

tracyp · 12-13-2006, 04:48 PM

It looks like Dodge City gun shop no longer exists. They gave up there FFL.

Here's a link to another forum:

http://www.santabarbara.net/forums/i...showtopic=4872

Pete Ebbink · 12-13-2006, 04:52 PM

Hi Tracy,

This happened to a big gun and sporting shop in the Oakland, CA area last year as well. That shop could not account for nearly 3,000 guns sold...mostly modern-day guns sold to the local "ganstas"...

Parabellus · 12-13-2006, 08:34 PM

Funny thing, Pete. Trader Sports in San Leandro, the one to which I believe you refer, is where I got my Cal DoJ Handgun Safety Cert. I have never purchased a gun there and now it's too late. Castro Valley Gun Shop (where I got my first Luger) is going through a change-of-ownership and has been without firearms to sell for some time now awaiting FFL approval for the new owner. Many of the dealers in the Bay Area have disappeared in recent time. Is this a nationwide disease?

Thanks for retrieving the old pictures of the Japanese Luger. What marvelous rare guns these must be. What history must they hold?

Russell

Ron Wood · 12-13-2006, 09:35 PM

Quote:

What marvelous rare guns these must be. What history must they hold?

Russell
They hold no history. They are fakes.

Pete Ebbink · 12-13-2006, 11:23 PM

Russell,

Probably just peculiar to gun shops trying to survive in CA State...

And yes...Trader Sports is/was the place. I was just brain-farting on the name...

BTW...if you get over to El Cerrito, check out this place. Just visiting this unique building makes the trip worthwhile.

A couple of local "homies" tried to hold up the place a few years back. The Owner and other employee had a shoot out and the bad guys went down. Unfortunately, a stray bullet flew across the street and hit a high-school kid walking by. He survived.

I thought for sure that would close the place down, but it did not...good for them. I think the "message" got out to the other un-desirables in the neighborhood..."we mean business"...

http://www.oldwestgunroom.com/index.html

Parabellus · 12-14-2006, 12:11 AM

Thanks Pete,

That could be just the place to find 7.63mm for my Broomhandle.

You didn't miss by much on Trader's; it's barely spitting (or shooting) distance from gangland Oakland.

Russell

Parabellus · 12-14-2006, 12:13 AM

Oh well Ron,

So much for history.

Russell

Parabellus · 12-15-2006, 02:34 AM

Tac & Ig,

Where are you guys goin' on Saturday (which is very soon Tokyo time)? Hope I didn't miss you on your way back to the left hemisphere. I still have to figure out how to find you in Oregon so you can show me your George Washington Luger.

Seriously though, as the discussion suggests that Chrysanthemum Lugers did exist during WWII, I would be pleased to see one just once.

Russell

11-29-2006, 10:39 PM	#86
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Gentlemen, Are the pictures originally posted in this thread still available somewhere? Russell __________________

11-29-2006, 11:01 PM	#87
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	Im there with ya Parabellus this thread has been fascinating __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

12-13-2006, 08:34 PM	#93
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Funny thing, Pete. Trader Sports in San Leandro, the one to which I believe you refer, is where I got my Cal DoJ Handgun Safety Cert. I have never purchased a gun there and now it's too late. Castro Valley Gun Shop (where I got my first Luger) is going through a change-of-ownership and has been without firearms to sell for some time now awaiting FFL approval for the new owner. Many of the dealers in the Bay Area have disappeared in recent time. Is this a nationwide disease? Thanks for retrieving the old pictures of the Japanese Luger. What marvelous rare guns these must be. What history must they hold? Russell __________________

12-14-2006, 12:11 AM	#96
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks Pete, That could be just the place to find 7.63mm for my Broomhandle. You didn't miss by much on Trader's; it's barely spitting (or shooting) distance from gangland Oakland. Russell __________________

12-14-2006, 12:13 AM	#97
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Oh well Ron, So much for history. Russell __________________

09-04-2003, 11:07 PM	#81
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	I joined NAPCA a year ago after I was persuaded to join by a world famous dealer/collector, and he provided my sponsorship. I never gave it a thought, but he is not computer literate and does all his dealings by telephone and snail mail. I am not sure, but I don't think he even has a fax machine. Anyway, after a year I am terribly disappointed in that the majority of members appear to be elderly (as I am) collectors who wish to have nothing to do with the world of the Internet and e-mail, just like the man who sponsored me. While an occasional article is informative, by and large most of the information in the newsletter deals with very obscure topics. This information can usually be obtained from other sources by anyone with computer skills. Don't forget, the Internet allows us to contact many world class experts on an almost instantaneous basis. Very few of the articles and ads are accompanied by an e-mail address, and due to the delays which accompany snail mail, items offered for sale are usually long gone by the time you can contact the seller. I love the idea of NAPCA and the high ideals it strives to meet, but it needs a drastic overhaul and modernization, and until it accomplishes this I can see only a dim future for this organization. I will not renew my membership, as I believe I can find much better uses for my dues.

09-04-2003, 11:57 PM	#82
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Aaron, I joined NAPCA a little over a year ago myself and initially my impression of AutoMag was similar to yours. But I then realized that there are some very knowledgable, older collectors that are willing to help newcomers who simply chose not to enter the computer-age. If you decide to stop receiving the paper-only AutoMag, you stand the risk of not benefiting from such folks...especially since these folks are equally "expert" as those who have joined the WWW-based gun-collecting community. I have met several NAPCA folks that barely get by on typewriters...and have no need of PC's, but are a treasure-trove of info. about lugers and other pistols. Several are lucky enough to live nearby so I can visit them in person...or at various gun shows. Also; after spending most of my adult life with PC's, I really enjoy sitting on the sofa next to my wife while she reads and I can enjoy the monthly AutoMag... Just my 2 cents...on the matter...sorry this Japanese luger discussion went a bit <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-05-2003, 11:05 AM	#83
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Since the pictured luger is very undutch (no 1906 pattern, no grip safety, no dutch markings, dutch 'rust', etc...) and the text on the barrel is the same as on a Nambu, I'd place it in the 'fake' or 'gift' category. (leaning towards the first, I'm afraid)

11-29-2006, 03:41 PM	#84
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Digging up a very old thread... This photo and caption of a Vickers "Mum" luger appears in V. Bobba's 2nd. book on luger, on page 83. Maybe someone can help with the Italian translation of the caption ???

11-29-2006, 04:18 PM	#85
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,312 Times in 430 Posts	"A Dutch Vickers bears an uncommon symbol on the chamber. According to some authors it represents a chrysanthemum, and the arm could have been sold in Japan, although the only evidence supporting this thesis is that the same shaped symbol is found on the handles of some Japanese swords." --Dwight

11-30-2006, 01:01 AM	#88
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Russell, I think photo posting from older threads naturally disappear after about 1 year or so. It has also happend over on Jan Still's gunboards, but that happened when the server crashed or was hacked. Many folks know this and will plan to "clip & save" photos onto our hard disks any of the photos files that interest us. Our newer Members probably do not know this. Here are two I saved from this previous discussion. They are photo scans from some of the Luger books discussed. BTW...there has been no follow-up article in the NAPCA newsletter "AutoMag" since the first article that I started the discussion with...which became quite a lively "conversation" on the Luger Forum. Also...if I recall...the kanji characters written on the length of the luger barrel are actually markings found on certain Japanese rifles.

11-30-2006, 02:12 AM	#89
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Dwight, Thanks for the Italian translation. Gerben, I thought of you and your posting of 2 years ago about wanting to see a "Dutch" luger with the Mum. That is why I updated a very old posting on the LF with the Vickers luger photo scan. But it seems some of our newer Members have enjoyed the discussion as well. That is good.

12-13-2006, 04:36 PM	#90
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	BTW...another variety of a "Japanese" luger surfaced for sale about 1.5 years ago. This one was reported to have a "Rising Sun" on the chamber (i.e. not the Mum...) and it was a WWII era Mauser. It appeared in a mail-out luger list at the Dodge City gun shop in Santa Barbara, CA. Suspect a dumping ground for some consignment boosted wares...as 60-70 lugers appeared all at one time...many rare (and phony) in a shop not known to carry many lugers at any one time. One of our LF members bought and returned 2 phony French lugers from this shop.

12-13-2006, 04:48 PM	#91
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	It looks like Dodge City gun shop no longer exists. They gave up there FFL. Here's a link to another forum: http://www.santabarbara.net/forums/i...showtopic=4872

12-13-2006, 04:52 PM	#92
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Tracy, This happened to a big gun and sporting shop in the Oakland, CA area last year as well. That shop could not account for nearly 3,000 guns sold...mostly modern-day guns sold to the local "ganstas"...

12-13-2006, 11:23 PM	#95
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Russell, Probably just peculiar to gun shops trying to survive in CA State... And yes...Trader Sports is/was the place. I was just brain-farting on the name... BTW...if you get over to El Cerrito, check out this place. Just visiting this unique building makes the trip worthwhile. A couple of local "homies" tried to hold up the place a few years back. The Owner and other employee had a shoot out and the bad guys went down. Unfortunately, a stray bullet flew across the street and hit a high-school kid walking by. He survived. I thought for sure that would close the place down, but it did not...good for them. I think the "message" got out to the other un-desirables in the neighborhood..."we mean business"... http://www.oldwestgunroom.com/index.html

12-15-2006, 02:34 AM	#98
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Tac & Ig, Where are you guys goin' on Saturday (which is very soon Tokyo time)? Hope I didn't miss you on your way back to the left hemisphere. I still have to figure out how to find you in Oregon so you can show me your George Washington Luger. Seriously though, as the discussion suggests that Chrysanthemum Lugers did exist during WWII, I would be pleased to see one just once. Russell __________________