my profile |
register |
faq |
search upload photo | donate | calendar |
05-11-2009, 06:04 PM | #61 |
Moderator
2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 6,988
Thanks: 1,067
Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts
|
Piet,
Many of these early military Lugers will have the final inspection mark stamped over a second small crown. This is particularly true of the Crown/Z and Crown/T marks on 1908 First Issue Lugers. The photo of #274f definitely has the small crown and I am qiuite sure that is the case with your beautiful Luger.
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction |
05-11-2009, 08:09 PM | #62 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824
Posts: 463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts
|
Piet
Ron gave an excellent analysis. Your 1911 DWM, sn 199f, has Crown/E Crown/E acceptance stamps on its right receiver. Also, 1911 DWMs serial numbers 8821e, 9656e, 9772e and 274f also have the Crown/E Crown/E acceptance stamps on their right receiver. Pages 16 and 439 of the book Central Powers Pistols give more information. Jan |
05-12-2009, 03:27 PM | #63 |
User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Africa
Posts: 143
Thanks: 155
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
|
So what you say is that what I see as crown F, is actually crown E?
(my photo's of sn 199f is unfortunately on the previous page (page 3) of the thread) and loose contact when you only go to the last post. Did they stamp all three marks at the same time or was this a process stamping one by one as certain tests were completed? Piet |
05-12-2009, 03:33 PM | #64 |
User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Africa
Posts: 143
Thanks: 155
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
|
I also have a question on the marking on the barrel. Normally I see 8.82 on the barrel, but 1911 sn 199f says 8.83
I know it is only .01mm difference, and I know about manufacturing tolerances. But why then mark it on the barrel? Piet |
05-12-2009, 10:10 PM | #65 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824
Posts: 463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts
|
Piet
I have attached images of the C, D, E, F. and G Reportedly they applied the acceptance stamps as the final inspection/test advanced. Görtz German Small Arms Markings, page 107-123 Jan |
The following member says Thank You to Jan C Still for your post: |
05-14-2009, 01:13 PM | #66 |
User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Africa
Posts: 143
Thanks: 155
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
|
Any comments on the 8,83 marking on the barrel (see previous photo)
Does our reference to 9mm parabellum means the exact caliber is 9mm, or is it 8,82/3 mm? Piet Last edited by Piet; 05-14-2009 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Spelling |
05-14-2009, 01:19 PM | #67 |
Patron
LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,429
Thanks: 67
Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts
|
Piet,
8,83 is the land-to-land measurement of the bore of this pistol, within acceptable tolerances for 9-mm Parabellum cartridges.
__________________
Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com |
05-14-2009, 01:30 PM | #68 |
User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Africa
Posts: 143
Thanks: 155
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
|
Don,
Does land to land means - not groove to groove? Piet |
05-14-2009, 01:34 PM | #69 |
Patron
LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,429
Thanks: 67
Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts
|
Exactly!
__________________
Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com |
The following member says Thank You to Don M for your post: |
05-14-2009, 02:53 PM | #70 |
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,915
Thanks: 1,989
Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts
|
for some reason I have to always "think" about this one.
It is obvious when I think about it; Groove to groove is like canyons on a ocean floor; while Land to land is like a jutting of land or peninsula’s sticking up from the ocean floor That may sound silly to some folks, but its how this mind works that I have J |
05-14-2009, 05:01 PM | #71 |
Lifer
Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: VA
Posts: 3,592
Thanks: 1,773
Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts
|
Piet, looking at about ten 1910, 1911 and 1912 P08's the measurements are 8.82 with a few 8.83.
|
05-14-2009, 07:20 PM | #72 |
Patron
LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,429
Thanks: 67
Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts
|
Piet, another way to look at it is that it was the bore diameter before the rifling grooves were cut.
__________________
Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com |
05-15-2009, 09:12 AM | #73 |
Lifer
Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Capital of the Free World
Posts: 10,150
Thanks: 3,003
Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts
|
Manufacturing Tolerances
Piet,
Here are two extracts fromt the military Luger Blueprints from 1913: The standar bore diameter is 8.85mm (land to land) The standard groove diameter is 9.1mm (groove to groove) manufacturing tolerance is + 0.01mm or -0.03mm A CD of very clear images of all the blueprints and including some great bonus drawings is available for purchase in the "For Sale" forum... see the "sticky" post near the top of that page...
__________________
regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL and are endowed by their Creator with certain UNALIENABLE rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..." |
05-15-2009, 01:56 PM | #74 |
User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Africa
Posts: 143
Thanks: 155
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
|
John,Don,George,Ed
Thanks, it means that land to land the minimum bore has to be 8,82mm and the max bore 8,86mm ? Obviously they tried to obtain the minimum bore in the manufacturing process. It means that there is a possibility to "clean" or recondition it and still stay within limits? (and also leave room for wear) Piet |
06-19-2009, 03:23 PM | #75 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 517
Thanks: 0
Thanked 409 Times in 160 Posts
|
Piet, what a nice rig- wonderful!
There are no problems with the acceptance marks. I can show you half a dozen of these marks. I often have seen a smaller acceptance mark under the larger. Nice that the acceptance mark of tool and receiver are the same. As Jerry wrote: On most holsters is the marker stamp and mostly a date. Your holster is a military one and not a commercial. Thanks for showing the nice rig with great historical background. |
The following member says Thank You to klaus 3338 for your post: |
|
|