Need help with .30 bullet selection

[CptCurl]

Let me also report that the Rainier plated bullet shot clean. After firing a magazine of 8 rounds the barrel looked like it had just been cleaned. No leading or other fouling. Of course, the Sig has a perfect, like new bore.

I think sizing this bullet to .3095" does some good. I'll be loading more.

Curl

[CptCurl]

Today is a good day to check in with my latest report (or non-report) as the case may be.

When I left off in January I reported good success with the Rainier bullets sized to .3095" and loaded in Fiocci brass ahead of a Remington small pistol primer and 5.2 grains of SR4756, at an OAL of 1.142". These functioned perfectly in my Sig P210 and rendered accuracy as good as Fiocci factory ammunition. They shot extremely clean, leaving no fouling in the bore. My intent was to try this load in a Luger, and I promised a report to the forum.

This is really a non-report for the reason I am about to explain. Even so, it serves a good lesson in safe reloading practice.

I'll start by reciting some history. If you flip back to Page #1 of this thread, you will see I am not the original poster (OP) of this thread. My participation began with Post #7 on July 27, 2011, in which I expressed the idea of trying the Rainier 100 grain plated bullet (along with others). I ordered up a box of 500 of the Rainier bullets and began experimenting. You can follow my progress through the pages of this thread.

On Page #3 of this thread you will notice a hiatus of more than 7 years. I made Post #49 on August 24, 2011. The next post I made, #50, was a revival of this thread I initiated on January 26, 2019. Several things have happened during the intervening years. Most significantly, I sold the DWM 1920 Commercial 7.65mm I was shooting back then.

Let me tell you a little bit about that gun. It was the perfect shooter Luger. "Perfect" in this sense means it was in high, almost flawless condition, with a perfect bore, except for one horrible, disgraceful, wart! Let me show you photos of it:







Yeah, you saw it: "W".





Well, a "W" such as this has its good points and its bad points. There's only one good point: I knew of the "W" when I bought it, so it factored into the price. The 1920 Commercial is a common variety. They usually can be found at a reasonable price. Let me say the price of this one was less than reasonable. I got it for well under the cost of a "Mix-a-Matic" that has been reblued multiple times by hamfisted Bubba. So in 2008 I bought it as my shooter. And I liked it.

All of the ammunition reports I made in this thread in the year 2011 concerned loads I fired in this pistol, which I had nicknamed "W" (kinda like our former president).

Not long after my ammunition trials of 2011 a friend cast covetous eyes on "W". In a (foolish) moment of weakness I sold him this wonderful shooter of a Luger.

In the wake of that rash sale I inventoried my collection to find I had nothing chambered in 7.65mm Parabellum I could consider a shooter. I had (and still have) a gorgeous 1900 AE. I showed it to the forum here: DWM 1900 American Eagle
I don't intend to go bang, bang, banging around with that.

I also had (and still have) an absolutely pristine 1920 Commercial, #7146l. I would show you some photos, but I haven't taken the time to photograph this beauty. I really didn't want to go bang, bang, banging around with that one either.

More recently I acquired a splendid 1902 Carbine. I showed it to the forum here: DWM Model 1902 Luger Carbine s/n 50100
I dang sure don't intend to go bang, bang, banging around with that one, and it uses different ammo anyway.

So my experiments with loads for the 7.65mm went dormant . . . until I bought the Sig P210. I told you about that pistol when I re-started this thread in January.

Now my history of the 7+ year hiatus is told, and we are up to the present. My wife would say, "Honey make a long story short." But its too late!

In my last post I reported shooting my loads in the SIG P210, and I made the statement, "Next I'll try them in my DWM Luger." That statement didn't refer to "W", as that pistol is long gone. I had decided to pull the pristine 1920 Commercial out of my safe and give her a go.

Now here's where the lesson is safe reloading practice gets told:

I've never fired my prissy 1920 Commercial I am now talking about. I had some loaded rounds of the exact same recipe as what I had just fired in the SIG P210. I intended to try them in this Luger. I have a lifetime of experience loading ammunition, and I know you don't go to the range with reloaded ammunition without making sure the ammo will freely chamber in the firearm in which you intend to shoot it. So I wanted to try my loaded ammo in the chamber of this Luger I never had fired. Usually I try with sized, but empty brass. With loaded rounds we must observe safety precautions.

If it were a bolt action rifle I would remove the firing pin before chambering a round. In this situation I disassembled my Luger and removed the striker. I then reassembled the toggle train without the striker. Never forget: The Luger toggle train is capable of firing even when it is off the lower assembly. Just because the gun is apart, it is not safe.

With the striker removed I tried chambering a round in the toggle train. It wouldn't quite close without pressing down on the toggle, telling me this Luger has tighter headspace than the SIG, in which the brass had been previously fired. Contact was being made hard against the shoulder of the case.

Next I went back to the loading bench and adjusted my RCBS sizing die down hard against the shellholder. I sized a fired case from the SIG and found that it still met resistance. Man, that fellow is tight!

Fiocci factory ammo chambers just fine. My obvious solution is to fire some factory ammo in this Luger and load this brass. Another alternative is to begin with unfired brass, of which I have a supply. I haven't done either. The 1920 Commercial is again slumbering in my safe.

Oh, I wish for "W"! There's more than reloading technique in the moral to this story.

Curl

[DonVoigt]

Perhaps the chamber is just not cut deep enough?
Even DWM could make a mistake.
If you had 7,65 luger gages, you could check it- I don't- I have to borrow a set and a reamer every time I need to change or chamber a barrel.

[CptCurl]

I think probably it is a minimal chamber and that my RCBS die doesn't quite take the brass back to specs. The factory ammo I have chambers just fine.

I don't feel it is something that needs to be remedied. If I decide to shoot my prissy 1920 Commercial I'll just start with unfired brass. I really don't intend to make a shooter out of that pistol.

Thanks,
Curl

[Rick W.]

The 'W" to me is not so bad, kinda like initials in a way.

If the "w" bugs you, then a microwelder is your friend. Abbynormals in metal are done everyday, just takes the effort to do it or find someone to do it.

Over the years, I have found that if I use a case with a bullet in it, that sometimes one can be fooled by the touch test in breeching. The bullet can touch the lands and give the feel of the shoulder bottoming out. Obviously the use of marking medium may show the way rather than guessing by feel.

Yeah, sometimes dies are a bit long for some chambers. SAAMI tries to help but sometimes things go astray. If one is convinced that the shoulder is too long, then the die can be put in the lathe and the bottom of said die touched a little. Note that dies are surface hardened, carbide is your friend to get thru the surface; after that HSS will be ok.

One can also use a revised shell holder. Think the folks market them as headspacing shell holders. Fancy name or marketing for pushing the case further up into the die. In reality, one can use a shim at the bottom of the shellholder between said shellholder and base of the case..........don't forget the hole in the shim or won't work so good.

Factory ammo in 30 Luger that I have looked at on occasion, I thought was way on the smaller side of known numbers. Guess they do that for working in most anything once.

fireformed cases from the working environment probably will be fine, just have to watch the touch on the resizer routine.

Headspace checks are always done with internals removed......don't want anything to fool the touch.

[Rickybill]

Having read, somewhere, that the groove diameter was .3095", I'd never loaded anything but .311"-.312" bullets run through a .309" sizer.
I started with some 90gr Sierras that had a lot of lead exposed at the tip, and had some feeding issues with those.
I soon discovered the Hornady 85gr XTP, and that became my go-to bullet; expensive, but the crimp groove is in exactly the right place.
I loaded some hundreds of those over loads of Unique, N340, and probably a couple of others.
After discovering the .309", 90gr XTP, I decided to give that a try. No crimp groove, but wasn't sure that was important.
Loaded over 5.2 of N340, I had some functional issues, but am not ready to blame the load, as I was also using a borrowed mag for a few strings.
I shortened the OAL "a smidge", thinking there could have some binding in one of the mags, and I'll try to be more scientific, next range trip.

[LU1900]

I use :
CAM PRO cal.7,65mm Full Copper Plated Round Nose Flat Point 85 grains
Works fine resised in 308
Reload n°4 from left to right

[Major Tom]

I reload the Hornady .309 bullet. I also have several hundred old Swiss made steel bullets that were made exclusively for the 30 Luger. Both are great bullets!

[mrerick]

With all the good reference information in this threat, I've made it a "stickie". Marc

[Kiwi]

I have been using the Prvi bullets from Graf and sons

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/29125

Work fine

[rhuff]

With a diameter of .306 compared to the correct diameter of .309in., I would be interested in the accuracy of this load. Many Lugers in 7.65Para caliber have very generous bores, and many, me included, have no problem using .310-.3115in. bullets with good accuracy.

[LU1900]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I have been using the Prvi bullets from Graf and sons

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/29125

Work fine

/
I use too , on my picture :
Lyman lead 90gr
Fiocchi 93gr
Lyman lead holow point 85gr
Campro 85gr
Prvi 90gr
H&N copped bullet 85gr

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by rhuff

With a diameter of .306 compared to the correct diameter of .309in., I would be interested in the accuracy of this load. Many Lugers in 7.65Para caliber have very generous bores, and many, me included, have no problem using .310-.3115in. bullets with good accuracy.

rhuff, I have been using the Prvi 85gr for reloading

Results:-
The Herco produced a 1.5 by 0.5 group with holes overlapping.

This is 5 shot groups at 25 yards.
One hand, freehand, so some attributable to my wobbliness
But this is a 70's Mauser remake, not an early DMW

[rhuff]

Thanks for the info. My post-war Mausers all have nice tight bores, compared to my early(pre-war/wartime) Lugers. I have two(2) Bar-Sto custom barrels in 7.65Para, and the chambers and bores are minimal in diameter. I attempted to shoot some of the .310-.311in. lead bullets through these barrels, and had a real mess with heavy leading of the barrels. They get ONLY FMJ bullets of the correct diameter shot down them these days. I was fortunate to acquire a fair amount of the Swiss 92gr .309 FMJ bullets from GT, and they work great.