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12-18-2012, 02:23 PM | #41 |
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Folks,
I think - again, as an outsider - that Olle made some valid points. I do not believe that draconian laws against firearms ownership is a solution against crime waves or a shooting spree. The current problems with high crime ratings and violence in my country is a vivid proof against such theory. However, stick to the 2nd Amendment as godspel will not allow you to hold this pósition forever. I'm afraid that, legaly speaking, an Amendment is... an amendment, it can be revoked or modified if the proper proceeding is taken by the Congress, as had happened before. It is only a matter of politics, popular support and lobby. It remembers me a legal lesson in the Roman-Germanic law that says that someone's right ends when the other's starts. I mean, your right to own a gun should not prevail over the right of protection to those who chose not to or are not entitled to carry a gun (as was the children's case). In a less technical note, I find difficult to say to those parents who lost theis sons and daughters that your right is untouchable and sacred. Those children should be alive and not in a wooden box. And politically speaking, is a shoot in your own foot. I know how dangerous is to deal with left wings politicians - I have my own experience with the same subject here - but to refuse to sit at the negociation table and discuss alternatives it will only bring those who are silent or haven't care about this subject until now (the "silent majority") against the firearms owners and NRA. You should be able to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, as it may turned out to be. I'm not what you call "a liberal". Believe me when I say that we (gun owners outside USA) see you and your rights to bear guns (and its effects against crime) as a great argument against antiguns all around the world. So any defeat over here can reverberate on other places. But, again, you must to be prepared to a wiser move than simply saying "no, we don't discuss this". With my respects. Douglas. |
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12-18-2012, 02:57 PM | #42 |
Lifer
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It was said that words are often deadlier than bullets, one fired from the silos of the mind can never be recalled, excused nor forgoten! The underestimated power of one finger caused one world war an ended another!!!
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12-18-2012, 03:08 PM | #43 | |
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What really hurts this debate is that both parties see their opponents as rabid, hard-headed ideologists, and act accordingly. It's not really a creative environment. |
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12-18-2012, 03:54 PM | #44 |
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Heavy metal classroom doors with a good lock down system would be a first good step. A regular teacher in panic with a lack of gun training is not a resolution for this problem. If there is a need for an armed teacher... then there is something wrong in the society. It's not a school in comanche territory 1850. It must be possible to raise children in a safe, child appropriate environment, without a constant fear.
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12-18-2012, 04:05 PM | #45 |
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Tell that to the Israelis.......
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12-18-2012, 04:34 PM | #46 |
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How do they secure their schools in Israel?
But can we really compare the US with Israel? There's another level of danger, a more constant threat of terrorist attacks. When my kids went to an elementary school in MD, I was never really concerned that something could happen to them like this.
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12-18-2012, 04:41 PM | #47 | |
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12-18-2012, 05:17 PM | #48 |
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Some of the problems stem from bad or lack of parental supervision IMO.
I took my physical wacks with the spanking stick, which was at that time sold in stores as a joke. The wife and her brothers got the strap. We all turned out just fine. But then again our parents weren't crack heads either.
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12-18-2012, 09:56 PM | #49 |
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Evening CBS news today (Tuesday, December 18th) covered a school in Texas, the name of which I cannot recall, in which teachers carry concealed weapons. I don't know the number of such teachers out of all those in the school. Texas state law allows this.
In the same news article, it was noted that the Governor of Michigan has vetoed a similar law. I did not note if that veto is history or within the last few days or even today. Did anyone else see this broadcast and can you by any chance provide any more details. David |
12-18-2012, 10:10 PM | #50 | |
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What the Gov in Michigan vetoed was CC carry overall being allowed in schools and daycares. The Bill had passed and was ready to be signed. You could tell the media gal interviewing the Texas principle was anti-gun............ |
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12-18-2012, 10:48 PM | #51 |
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Put a police officer in every school in America and pay for it with all the money we give to foreign countries.
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12-18-2012, 11:58 PM | #52 |
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I'm sure "Automatic" (semi-automatic) weapons that are magazine fed will be targets for the "Feel Good's". Your Lugers will be on the table, for sure. Sit back, and do nothing.
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12-19-2012, 12:28 AM | #53 | ||||
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Several things said here are incorrect:
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Marc |
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12-19-2012, 02:14 AM | #54 | |||||
Twice a Lifer
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David Parker
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12-19-2012, 08:09 AM | #55 |
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Thank you for added, noncom retired. The college shooting was the horror at Virginia Tech by another mentally incompetent person.
David |
12-19-2012, 08:51 AM | #56 |
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I'm sure that someone more educated than me can pick it apart, after all I'm an engineer and not a lawyer so I'm looking at it from a layman's practical view, rather than analyzing exactly how and where the text is written. Anyway, the bottom line is that you seem to think that nothing can change the constitution, while I believe that there is a chance for it to happen.
What I'm looking at is that there have been several amendments to the constitution (one as late as 1992), so it can obviously be done. You can also look at the 18th and the 21st Amendments, it has been a while but they show how fickle politicians can tinker with the constitution. So my question is if there is a way for everybody to agree on how the 2nd Amendment should be applied to a 21th century society. There is obviously a great disagreement between the pro-gun and anti-gun politicians, and I believe the truth is somewhere inbetween. From a strictly legal standpoint, that may be true. But once again, the amendments show that changes in society have also changed the interpretation of the original constitution. You can call it popular opinion, politics, lobby or whatever, it doesn't change the fact that it can happen. |
12-19-2012, 09:50 AM | #57 |
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Popular history tends to be re-written on a regular basis. There was a big revisionist movement in the 20's. Apparently the stuff about Geo. Washington and the cherry tree is a total myth, making its first appearance in recorded/written history at about that time. This is not entirely unlike how German text books were edited, post-war, to help their society deal with the extensive, collective guilt, shame, and consternation concerning their preceding political paradigm and the policies that were carried out. Basically, an entire nation had been duped, or baited and switched by a juggernaut of their own creation, however "well-meaning" it was presumed to be at its inception. And we haven't stopped there.
Robert Green Ingersoll (the Great Agnostic) was a lawyer for the railroads at the turn of the last century, and a very popular speaker on the subject of agnosticism, the bible, and belief. He was the highest paid public speaker in a time before media we take for granted nowadays--film, radio, TV--up to $2.500 per appearance, which in those days was the price of a couple of houses. He neglected to underwrite further efforts in this realm after his death, leaving none of his massive fortune to the cause because he presumed religiosity had been pretty well stamped out. But he was wrong. Myths continue to be created, most significantly one that had resurgence as little as about 20 years ago, that the United States is a Christian nation. This notion is a total fabrication perpetrated and maintained by those who would benefit from it. Its roots lie in thinking that is more like mob rule than democracy. Safeguards in the Constitution, (on paper, anyway) help prevent a majority from trampling the rights of a minority simply because there are , obviously, more people in the former. We have an undeniable Christian (whatever that is, broken into thousands of splits and offshoots) majority. The founding fathers deemed no religious view any more valid than any of the others, and tried to ensure that the basis for legislation NOT have its origins in ANY of them. If this were not the case, there would be an opportunity for a majority with a particular view to hijack the entire country. Religion has no place in politics and overall societal policy; otherwise someone's freedom is curtailed, never fear.
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12-19-2012, 11:51 AM | #58 |
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How sad that rights and freedoms one generation has been asked to die for are so willingly relinquished by another on the basis of popular opinion.
Marc |
12-19-2012, 12:03 PM | #59 | ||
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IthicaArtist,
Perhaps a more careful approach would be advisable before “correcting” another’s post. Cdmech never claimed his first quote was from the Constitution. You may disagree but I believe that most view the Declaration as one of our founding documents. Quote:
“ amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution as soon as it is ratified by three-fourths of the States” Other inaccuracies would include confusing the Virginian George Mason with the Englishman Charles Mason, who with Jeremiah Dixon surveyed the boundary between Maryland and Pennsylvania(the Mason-Dixon Line), and attributing the cherry tree myth of Washington to the Quote:
That story is first seen in a biography on Washington written by Mason Locke Weems ( A History of the Life and Death, Virtues and Exploits, of General George Washington(1800) either 20 or 120 years before the “revisionist movement” you mention depending on which century you’re referring to. As to this being a Christian nation, you may be able to argue from a religious standpoint, but I think there's little doubt that this country embraces the philisophical teachings of the man Jesus of Nazareth I believe that your lack of factual accuracy, opinion masquerading as fact, and the obvious disdain for religion apparent in your posts taints any of the possibly relevant points you make.
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12-19-2012, 12:21 PM | #60 | |
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Regarding Christianism and religion I strongly believe that it must be left out of any political discussion. Religion is a matter of faith, with its dogmas. Although I'm pretty certain that the Chritian guided several principles written by the Founding Fathers in your Constitution, their most important contribution (and its most historically contribution) was to creat a secular Nation, with freedom of religion. But, again, in my humble opinion, it has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment, laws, and the possibility of changing gun control rules. Respectfully, Douglas |
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