Lugers With Ground-off Stock Lugs Data Request

Don M · 06-09-2007, 04:51 PM

Since becoming interested in Lugers and German police markings, I have learned from various sources that some Lugers were "butchered" by grinding off their stock lugs to prevent their being used with shoulder stocks contrary to U.S. firearms laws. While I do not have a basis for disputing this, I am researching an hypothesis that at least some of these may have had this surgery upon their delivery to German police in regions occupied by the French following WWI. The French occupied the southern Rhineland until January 1930 and may have required this modification for some of the Lugers used by the German police in these areas. Specific examples are 29 DWM Lugers with u and v suffixes that are marked H.P. on the grip straps and two Lugers from the occupied city of Wiesbaden marked S.W.II.

To test this hypothesis, I would appreciate learning of any Lugers, police marked or not, that have had their stock lugs ground off. Data I'm interested in include:
- Toggle logo and chamber date / property stamp, if any
- Serial number with suffix, if any
- Grip strap marking or evidence of removal, if any
- Sear and mag safeties or evidence of removal, if any
- Photo of ground lug area, if possible
- Confirmation, if available, of the grinding having been done in the U.S.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Don M · 07-31-2007, 12:28 PM

It's been almost two months since I posted this on three popular forums and I have had zero response. I am beginning to think that the stories about grinding stock lugs to comply with U.S. firearms laws are myths. Maybe bringing this topic back to the top will shake the tree.

John Sabato · 07-31-2007, 01:03 PM

Don, I am not surprized by the zero response...

I have no facts to back this, but my feeling is that any grinding of stock lugs took place in the USA, not overseas... based on ill-advised interpretations of the "law"

The "law" about the use of pistols with shoulderstocks would naturally be the National Firearms Act of 1934... I believe Lugers were legally imported into this country complete with Stock Lugs after that date by Stoeger... There may have even been some that thought that "customizing" their Luger by grinding off the stock lug and refinishing it would give it a smoother appearance...

Frank · 07-31-2007, 01:20 PM

Don, I have a few Lugers and NONE of them have ground off stock lugs. I think you are looking for a needle in a hay stack!!

The lack of stock lugs are found in the early DWM Lugers and those that were eliminated by people that were afraid of the BATF rules.

Sorry I can't add anything further!!

Don M · 07-31-2007, 03:44 PM

John and Frank,

Thanks for the replies. I was beginning to feel like a leper!

I realize that the prevailing opinion among collectors is that stock lugs were ground off in the US; however, I am looking for some first-hand confirmation of that. So far, I've drawn a blank.

wlyon · 07-31-2007, 04:23 PM

Don
Sorry I somehow missed this originally. Ihave a 29 Sneak with the stock lug partially ground off.
Toggle logo None
Chamber date None
L. Ar. 196.
sear and mag safety (only partially remaining)
No idea where it was done.
If you would like pictures let me know. Bill

Don M · 07-31-2007, 07:30 PM

Bingo!!!

Bill, I would love photos, particularly of the ground-off lug, as well as the full serial number of the gun. Thanks very much for letting me know.

Edward Tinker · 07-31-2007, 08:06 PM

John, I think that Don is correct, this is more of a feeling, rather than as true as we'd like to think. I have seen ground stock lugs, but it is less common than you'd think and some of the ground stock lugs are on police lugers.

Ed

Don M · 08-01-2007, 12:16 AM

I am not really championing one position or the other --- just trying to get at the facts as Joe Friday would say. Bill's pistol may be evidence that some were ground in the US.

wlyon · 08-01-2007, 12:33 AM

Don - Missed the serial number; it is 3519u. If the pictures aren't what you need, let me know. Regards Bill

Dwight Gruber · 08-01-2007, 12:48 AM

Bill,

It looks like there is no c/N proof on the left receiver, is this correct? What is the proof on the breechblock? Is there a e/WaA66 (or other stamp) on the right receiver?

--Dwight

wlyon · 08-01-2007, 01:29 AM

Dwight
Right receiver and barrel proofed same as one in Jan's Third Reich Luger book pg.213. One in book is only 32 #'s from mine. Proof on breechblock is same eagle as first on breechblock. No C/N on receiver. If you need more info just ask. Bill

Dwight Gruber · 08-01-2007, 02:54 AM

Bill,

Thanks very much for the additional info. Having a complete WaA proof suite instead of commercial proofs is very unusual--I only have three others recorded in the Commercial database, all u suffix 29DWM.

--Dwight

Don M · 08-01-2007, 10:00 AM

Bill,

Thanks very much for posting this. This grinding may have been done in the US.

Edward Tinker · 08-01-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don M
I am not really championing one position or the other --- just trying to get at the facts as Joe Friday would say. Bill's pistol may be evidence that some were ground in the US.

of course, joe was my hero, "the facts ma'am, just the facts..." was a quote I loved...

mastermo · 03-02-2011, 08:26 PM

Hi, I'm new to the forum and I believe you guys might be able to supply some answers to my questions.
I just bought a 1917 Artillery Luger with the stock lug ground-off. The numbers are 5404 DWM, and I just love it. It had two worn teeth and I replaced the Ladder and Sight w/ Fine Tune. The value I'm slightly concerned but not too much since I really like all the aspects of the gun, i.e., beauty, accuracy, excellent handling, etc.
My question is, can and where could I have the stock lug re-installed (welded then machined)? For I don't plan selling it any time soon, I'm enjoying it too much.

Btw, the grind was done so good that it is extremely smooth and contoured that it looks like there never was a stock lug there. And value on not... I like it,

Thx.
mastermo (Manuel

mastermo · 03-02-2011, 08:32 PM

Oh, almost forgot, all parts are matched and I'm saving the worn matching sight.
Manuel

sheepherder · 03-02-2011, 09:09 PM

Try a Search...Someone here (Lugerdoc?) was advertising some halves of Martz frames...

Mauser720 · 03-02-2011, 09:25 PM

Don M -

I've sent you a private message.

Ron

MikeP · 03-02-2011, 10:25 PM

I saw a couple ground Lugers about 1960 and recall the story.
It just involved the legality in the USA.

They were not commonly seen.

I had a mint C96 rig, all matching including stock and 1916 leather I got from a vet neighbor.
They were illegal then and I had to give it up in 1966 just before going to the army.
Got ratted out by a fool in my dorm.
That was one nice pistol!

06-09-2007, 04:51 PM	#1
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Lugers With Ground-off Stock Lugs Data Request Since becoming interested in Lugers and German police markings, I have learned from various sources that some Lugers were "butchered" by grinding off their stock lugs to prevent their being used with shoulder stocks contrary to U.S. firearms laws. While I do not have a basis for disputing this, I am researching an hypothesis that at least some of these may have had this surgery upon their delivery to German police in regions occupied by the French following WWI. The French occupied the southern Rhineland until January 1930 and may have required this modification for some of the Lugers used by the German police in these areas. Specific examples are 29 DWM Lugers with u and v suffixes that are marked H.P. on the grip straps and two Lugers from the occupied city of Wiesbaden marked S.W.II. To test this hypothesis, I would appreciate learning of any Lugers, police marked or not, that have had their stock lugs ground off. Data I'm interested in include: - Toggle logo and chamber date / property stamp, if any - Serial number with suffix, if any - Grip strap marking or evidence of removal, if any - Sear and mag safeties or evidence of removal, if any - Photo of ground lug area, if possible - Confirmation, if available, of the grinding having been done in the U.S. Thanks in advance for your help. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

07-31-2007, 12:28 PM	#2
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	It's been almost two months since I posted this on three popular forums and I have had zero response. I am beginning to think that the stories about grinding stock lugs to comply with U.S. firearms laws are myths. Maybe bringing this topic back to the top will shake the tree. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

07-31-2007, 01:03 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Don, I am not surprized by the zero response... I have no facts to back this, but my feeling is that any grinding of stock lugs took place in the USA, not overseas... based on ill-advised interpretations of the "law" The "law" about the use of pistols with shoulderstocks would naturally be the National Firearms Act of 1934... I believe Lugers were legally imported into this country complete with Stock Lugs after that date by Stoeger... There may have even been some that thought that "customizing" their Luger by grinding off the stock lug and refinishing it would give it a smoother appearance... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-31-2007, 03:44 PM	#5
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	John and Frank, Thanks for the replies. I was beginning to feel like a leper! I realize that the prevailing opinion among collectors is that stock lugs were ground off in the US; however, I am looking for some first-hand confirmation of that. So far, I've drawn a blank. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

07-31-2007, 04:23 PM	#6
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,652 Thanks: 3,210 Thanked 2,612 Times in 969 Posts	Don Sorry I somehow missed this originally. Ihave a 29 Sneak with the stock lug partially ground off. Toggle logo None Chamber date None L. Ar. 196. sear and mag safety (only partially remaining) No idea where it was done. If you would like pictures let me know. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

07-31-2007, 01:20 PM	#4
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Don, I have a few Lugers and NONE of them have ground off stock lugs. I think you are looking for a needle in a hay stack!! The lack of stock lugs are found in the early DWM Lugers and those that were eliminated by people that were afraid of the BATF rules. Sorry I can't add anything further!!

07-31-2007, 07:30 PM	#7
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Bingo!!! Bill, I would love photos, particularly of the ground-off lug, as well as the full serial number of the gun. Thanks very much for letting me know. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

07-31-2007, 08:06 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	John, I think that Don is correct, this is more of a feeling, rather than as true as we'd like to think. I have seen ground stock lugs, but it is less common than you'd think and some of the ground stock lugs are on police lugers. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-01-2007, 12:16 AM	#9
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	I am not really championing one position or the other --- just trying to get at the facts as Joe Friday would say. Bill's pistol may be evidence that some were ground in the US. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-01-2007, 12:33 AM	#10
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,652 Thanks: 3,210 Thanked 2,612 Times in 969 Posts	Don - Missed the serial number; it is 3519u. If the pictures aren't what you need, let me know. Regards Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

08-01-2007, 12:48 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Bill, It looks like there is no c/N proof on the left receiver, is this correct? What is the proof on the breechblock? Is there a e/WaA66 (or other stamp) on the right receiver? --Dwight

08-01-2007, 01:29 AM	#12
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,652 Thanks: 3,210 Thanked 2,612 Times in 969 Posts	Dwight Right receiver and barrel proofed same as one in Jan's Third Reich Luger book pg.213. One in book is only 32 #'s from mine. Proof on breechblock is same eagle as first on breechblock. No C/N on receiver. If you need more info just ask. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

08-01-2007, 02:54 AM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Bill, Thanks very much for the additional info. Having a complete WaA proof suite instead of commercial proofs is very unusual--I only have three others recorded in the Commercial database, all u suffix 29DWM. --Dwight

08-01-2007, 10:00 AM	#14
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Bill, Thanks very much for posting this. This grinding may have been done in the US. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

03-02-2011, 08:26 PM	#16
mastermo User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 49 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, I'm new to the forum and I believe you guys might be able to supply some answers to my questions. I just bought a 1917 Artillery Luger with the stock lug ground-off. The numbers are 5404 DWM, and I just love it. It had two worn teeth and I replaced the Ladder and Sight w/ Fine Tune. The value I'm slightly concerned but not too much since I really like all the aspects of the gun, i.e., beauty, accuracy, excellent handling, etc. My question is, can and where could I have the stock lug re-installed (welded then machined)? For I don't plan selling it any time soon, I'm enjoying it too much. Btw, the grind was done so good that it is extremely smooth and contoured that it looks like there never was a stock lug there. And value on not... I like it, Thx. mastermo (Manuel

03-02-2011, 08:32 PM	#17
mastermo User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 49 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Oh, almost forgot, all parts are matched and I'm saving the worn matching sight. Manuel

03-02-2011, 09:09 PM	#18
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,195 Thanks: 1,411 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Try a Search...Someone here (Lugerdoc?) was advertising some halves of Martz frames... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-02-2011, 09:25 PM	#19
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Don M - I've sent you a private message. Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

03-02-2011, 10:25 PM	#20
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	I saw a couple ground Lugers about 1960 and recall the story. It just involved the legality in the USA. They were not commonly seen. I had a mint C96 rig, all matching including stock and 1916 leather I got from a vet neighbor. They were illegal then and I had to give it up in 1966 just before going to the army. Got ratted out by a fool in my dorm. That was one nice pistol!