Krieghoff P 59 - Page 3

lugerholsterrepair · 02-01-2006, 01:23 AM

Albert, Jack was kind enough to bring this pistol to my home on several occasions so we could marvel at it, strip it down and photograph it. Regardless of any photographic abnormalities you may see, I want to assure all who look at these photo's that this pistol is exactly as it left the Krieghoff factory. I have looked at my share of Luger pistols, both original and refinished. I stake what small reputation I have that this pistol is 100% original and correct. I have looked into every crevice and well, down the barrel and under the grips. This is as good as it gets. It is actually a rare opportunity to observe an original excellent condition P code Krieghoff.
Jack was fully aware that some would question various facets of this pistol and he is prepared for these inquiries. He had some hesitation about sharing it with the membership because of the doubt that might arise. I assured him it would indeed happen but if there was any that I might answer I would do so. So...Look at this pistol and rest assured, it is as it should be as far as original bluing and straw. I know little about Krieghoffs and like Pete only posses an S code. I do know that this one is a rare beauty. Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 02-01-2006, 03:54 AM

OK, I am almost certainly talking through my hat here since Krieghoffs are WAY out of my league, but here are some observations and I will await comment from those who know what they are talking about.

The chamfer in the toggleknob holes is typical Krieghoff and looks OK to me. Also, the star looks like a stamp and not an engraving to me.

So much for the positives, now for the display of my ignorance.

One thing that bugs me a little bit is the apparent uneven radius around the forward toggle link to breechblock pin, or is it just my eye?

Now for the way out WAGs:

Except for the sideframe inscription, which looks kosher to me, this piece shouts DWM. Lets start with the toggle logo. The arms of the anchor extend beyond the HK monogram. On all the die types in Gibson except Type A, the right arm of the anchor points directly to the bottom of the right leg of the K. It isnÃ¢??t a Die Type A because the handle of the dagger is too long and the blade is symmetrical and not flat on the left side. To me it looks like the logo on the totally DWM produced serial #9124i shown in Gibson and Kenyon (a really rare example and may be a prototype).

Next, the breechblocks also smack of DWM. The bottom forward part of the bolt face on a Krieghoff is very nearly uniformly round. On a DWM there is a pronounced flat at the bottom. On the 7.65 example, it is clearly present. On the 9mm example it is a little less pronounced but definitely there. As an aside, the hole in the bottom of the breechblock I have only seen on those modified by the FinnsÃ¢?Â¦just an observation.

Lastly, the stock lug groove looks more DWM than Krieghoff. The runout at the top is a little more pronounced than usually encountered, but has the appearance of DWM rather than the nice finished stop of a Krighoff.

That's my story...fire away.

Vlim · 02-01-2006, 07:09 AM

Okay,

Ehm. After reading some explanations and seeing the images, my first impression is that this pistol started off as a DWM commercial police version, could well have been a 7.65 version originally, which has been modified to give the appearance of a Krieghoff.

As Albert noted, the sideplate is a buffed replacement and I don't like the presence of signs of police modifications. I agree with Ron that the details are more in line with a DWM.

I think the problem is that the pistol has been built up using both Krieghoff and DWM parts.

Ron Wood · 02-01-2006, 04:02 PM

If I have not totally alienated Jerry and Jack, I would like to prevail upon their good graces and ask for an additional photo. I would like to see the frame where the trigger guard meets the front grip strap.
I am not ready to write this one off as a "build up" just yet. The sear safety plug and the WaA66 are troubling, but the toggle logo leads me down a different path. I do wish that John D. would wade in on this.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-01-2006, 09:19 PM

Ron, I cannot speak for Jack of course...He predicted that his pistol would be torn asunder. This pistol has many interesting fascets and may well have been made at Krieghoff from some DWM parts. I will say once again, I have examined the totality of this pistol under the best light and magnification. It is not a "put together". Nor is it refinished. It IS so fresh as to be right off the factory floor. Both muzzles are in the white.
It does have some fascinating aspects, the Police sear safety holes. the Police mag. The Wa on the right side of the 4" cannon. The .30 Cannon. I cannot explain certain interesting things about this pistol. I do know that as good as the photo's are, they do not do this pistol justice. As a psudo scientist and historian I welcome opinions of all kinds as long as they are kept civil. So far they have been and I appreciate that. . I too would like to hear from John D and or Tom A.
Jack has sent the photo's I took to a preminant Krieghoff expert of World renown and is waiting to get his take on it. Already, preliminary opinions are positive. I will let Jack expound on this if he sees fit.
Jerry Burney

Vlim · 02-02-2006, 05:50 AM

Hi,

The interesting bit about the sear safety holes is that these modifications were made to police pistols by police arsenals, as far as I know.

Basically, this would make it very questionable for those parts to have originated from DWM leftovers, being reused by Krieghoff.

So I think the 9mm receiver at least raises some questions, which is funny, because it would have been more logical when the .30 receiver had the police sear safety hole.

It's a very interesting combination and being a commercial version doesn't make research easier. Because on the commercial market, basically, everything can and will be done. No tight military contract limitations.

Are both Krieghoff toggle marks identical?

hqbmw · 02-02-2006, 06:41 PM

Ron,

At least your question was completely valid. Here is a shot of the area you asked: where the trigger guard meets the th front grip strap.

Hope it doesn't give you "Bad vibes" because they are just not good for one's health.

John D. · 02-02-2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Wood
....I do wish that John D. would wade in on this.

I am watching and reading... Unfortunately - I haven't had the time to write the reply this thread deserves. I will - I promise!!!

I'm writing this from a terminal at work (at my other job) - logged in from their systems through mine... I get home tonight about 10PM - so if I have some time to collect my thoughts - I'll try then..? If not - it will probably be Sunday - as that is my one day off..??

John D.

Navy · 02-02-2006, 09:09 PM

All,

1. I don't like the looks of the star
2. The stock lug is unlike any of my Kriegs.

Will do more study as time permits.

Tom A

Ron Wood · 02-03-2006, 12:23 AM

Jack,
My vibes are good most of the time regardless of the situation! And, by the way, although the shine makes it a bit difficult to say 100% for sure, the triggerguard does appear to have a Krieghoff flare. Thanks for the extra photo.

Ron Wood · 02-03-2006, 12:53 AM

Tom,
Best wishes and prayers for your wife.
Ron

Rod WMG · 02-03-2006, 07:55 AM

Ditto on the wishes and prayer.

Pete Ebbink · 02-11-2006, 01:58 PM

John D.,

Any opinions...?

Pete Ebbink · 03-27-2007, 03:39 PM

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11216

Pete Ebbink · 07-24-2007, 01:39 AM

P59 discussions continued over on Jan's GunBoards toward the middle of this thread...same gun, new owner...UNFORTUNATELY...

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12204

the gunman · 07-24-2007, 08:51 AM

"WOW"

Pete Ebbink · 08-07-2007, 11:36 PM

Hi John D.,

Any belated comments on this P59 HK Luger ?

As you may or may not know, it has passed through 2 Owner hands since it first appeared here on the Luger Forum.

Your expertise would certainly help...I have no problem being all "wrong" about P59. I think the current owner would probably appreciate your opinions as well.

John D. · 08-07-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
Hi John D.,

Any belated comments on this P59 HK Luger ?

As you may or may not know, it has passed through 2 Owner hands since it first appeared here on the Luger Forum.

Your expertise would certainly help...I have no problem being all "wrong" about P59. I think the current owner would probably appreciate your opinions as well.

Hi Pete,

Nope - I have no belated comments in public, but thanks for asking! I was asked, in private several questions - which I answered...

And yes, I am aware it changed hands..

Best to you!

John D.

02-01-2006, 01:23 AM	#41
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,928 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Albert, Jack was kind enough to bring this pistol to my home on several occasions so we could marvel at it, strip it down and photograph it. Regardless of any photographic abnormalities you may see, I want to assure all who look at these photo's that this pistol is exactly as it left the Krieghoff factory. I have looked at my share of Luger pistols, both original and refinished. I stake what small reputation I have that this pistol is 100% original and correct. I have looked into every crevice and well, down the barrel and under the grips. This is as good as it gets. It is actually a rare opportunity to observe an original excellent condition P code Krieghoff. Jack was fully aware that some would question various facets of this pistol and he is prepared for these inquiries. He had some hesitation about sharing it with the membership because of the doubt that might arise. I assured him it would indeed happen but if there was any that I might answer I would do so. So...Look at this pistol and rest assured, it is as it should be as far as original bluing and straw. I know little about Krieghoffs and like Pete only posses an S code. I do know that this one is a rare beauty. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-01-2006, 03:54 AM	#42
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	OK, I am almost certainly talking through my hat here since Krieghoffs are WAY out of my league, but here are some observations and I will await comment from those who know what they are talking about. The chamfer in the toggleknob holes is typical Krieghoff and looks OK to me. Also, the star looks like a stamp and not an engraving to me. So much for the positives, now for the display of my ignorance. One thing that bugs me a little bit is the apparent uneven radius around the forward toggle link to breechblock pin, or is it just my eye? Now for the way out WAGs: Except for the sideframe inscription, which looks kosher to me, this piece shouts DWM. Lets start with the toggle logo. The arms of the anchor extend beyond the HK monogram. On all the die types in Gibson except Type A, the right arm of the anchor points directly to the bottom of the right leg of the K. It isnÃ¢??t a Die Type A because the handle of the dagger is too long and the blade is symmetrical and not flat on the left side. To me it looks like the logo on the totally DWM produced serial #9124i shown in Gibson and Kenyon (a really rare example and may be a prototype). Next, the breechblocks also smack of DWM. The bottom forward part of the bolt face on a Krieghoff is very nearly uniformly round. On a DWM there is a pronounced flat at the bottom. On the 7.65 example, it is clearly present. On the 9mm example it is a little less pronounced but definitely there. As an aside, the hole in the bottom of the breechblock I have only seen on those modified by the FinnsÃ¢?Â¦just an observation. Lastly, the stock lug groove looks more DWM than Krieghoff. The runout at the top is a little more pronounced than usually encountered, but has the appearance of DWM rather than the nice finished stop of a Krighoff. That's my story...fire away. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-01-2006, 04:02 PM	#44
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	If I have not totally alienated Jerry and Jack, I would like to prevail upon their good graces and ask for an additional photo. I would like to see the frame where the trigger guard meets the front grip strap. I am not ready to write this one off as a "build up" just yet. The sear safety plug and the WaA66 are troubling, but the toggle logo leads me down a different path. I do wish that John D. would wade in on this. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-01-2006, 09:19 PM	#45
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,928 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ron, I cannot speak for Jack of course...He predicted that his pistol would be torn asunder. This pistol has many interesting fascets and may well have been made at Krieghoff from some DWM parts. I will say once again, I have examined the totality of this pistol under the best light and magnification. It is not a "put together". Nor is it refinished. It IS so fresh as to be right off the factory floor. Both muzzles are in the white. It does have some fascinating aspects, the Police sear safety holes. the Police mag. The Wa on the right side of the 4" cannon. The .30 Cannon. I cannot explain certain interesting things about this pistol. I do know that as good as the photo's are, they do not do this pistol justice. As a psudo scientist and historian I welcome opinions of all kinds as long as they are kept civil. So far they have been and I appreciate that. . I too would like to hear from John D and or Tom A. Jack has sent the photo's I took to a preminant Krieghoff expert of World renown and is waiting to get his take on it. Already, preliminary opinions are positive. I will let Jack expound on this if he sees fit. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-02-2006, 06:41 PM	#47
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, At least your question was completely valid. Here is a shot of the area you asked: where the trigger guard meets the th front grip strap. Hope it doesn't give you "Bad vibes" because they are just not good for one's health. Attached Thumbnails

02-01-2006, 07:09 AM	#43
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Okay, Ehm. After reading some explanations and seeing the images, my first impression is that this pistol started off as a DWM commercial police version, could well have been a 7.65 version originally, which has been modified to give the appearance of a Krieghoff. As Albert noted, the sideplate is a buffed replacement and I don't like the presence of signs of police modifications. I agree with Ron that the details are more in line with a DWM. I think the problem is that the pistol has been built up using both Krieghoff and DWM parts.

02-02-2006, 05:50 AM	#46
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The interesting bit about the sear safety holes is that these modifications were made to police pistols by police arsenals, as far as I know. Basically, this would make it very questionable for those parts to have originated from DWM leftovers, being reused by Krieghoff. So I think the 9mm receiver at least raises some questions, which is funny, because it would have been more logical when the .30 receiver had the police sear safety hole. It's a very interesting combination and being a commercial version doesn't make research easier. Because on the commercial market, basically, everything can and will be done. No tight military contract limitations. Are both Krieghoff toggle marks identical?

02-02-2006, 09:09 PM	#49
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, 1. I don't like the looks of the star 2. The stock lug is unlike any of my Kriegs. Will do more study as time permits. Tom A

02-03-2006, 12:23 AM	#50
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Jack, My vibes are good most of the time regardless of the situation! And, by the way, although the shine makes it a bit difficult to say 100% for sure, the triggerguard does appear to have a Krieghoff flare. Thanks for the extra photo. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-03-2006, 12:53 AM	#51
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Tom, Best wishes and prayers for your wife. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-03-2006, 07:55 AM	#52
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ditto on the wishes and prayer.

02-11-2006, 01:58 PM	#53
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	John D. Opnions...??? John D., Any opinions...?

03-27-2007, 03:39 PM	#54
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Another One... http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11216

07-24-2007, 01:39 AM	#55
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	P59 discussions continued over on Jan's GunBoards toward the middle of this thread...same gun, new owner...UNFORTUNATELY... http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12204

07-24-2007, 08:51 AM	#56
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	"WOW"

08-07-2007, 11:36 PM	#57
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi John D., Any belated comments on this P59 HK Luger ? As you may or may not know, it has passed through 2 Owner hands since it first appeared here on the Luger Forum. Your expertise would certainly help...I have no problem being all "wrong" about P59. I think the current owner would probably appreciate your opinions as well.