Tuning for Reliability

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

I had no idea that Portugal was the founder of NATO, as they didn't even participate in WWII.


Sieger

Not the founder, but one of the founding members. The expansion of comunism was considered a big threat.

We are getting way off topic.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

I believe you. I had same experience with few P08 myself. Lots of them work flawlessly but topics is about stubborn ones and how to make them work.
Another important aspect is OAL. My experience with WWB is that is not consistent from box to box.

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

You may not reload with fast powders, but if your shooting White Box, you certainly are shooting it.

Sieger

When using factory ammo I'm forced to accept whatever powder they choose to use. If it performs well I'll keep using it.

Magtech ammo seems to use a faster powder than WWBox. It feels different in my hand.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Not the founder, but one of the founding members. The expansion of comunism was considered a big threat.

We are getting way off topic.

Hi,

Yes, but I'm not the originator of the comment.


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

When using factory ammo I'm forced to accept whatever powder they choose to use. If it performs well I'll keep using it.

Magtech ammo seems to use a faster powder than WWBox. It feels different in my hand.

Hi,

While we are on the subject of Magtech, I just ordered some of their commercially available bullets, in another pistol caliber, and can tell you, after weighing some 300 bullets, that their consistency was excellent!!!

Quality control, from this Brazilian firm, seems excellent indeed!!!


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

Hi,

Yes, but Mike has had some real difficulty in getting his P-08 model Lugers to function reliably. I can't understand it either, as all of my Lugers, after a little study, have worked very reliably; and reliably is defined, by me, as no jams in 1,000 rounds shot.


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

When using factory ammo I'm forced to accept whatever powder they choose to use. If it performs well I'll keep using it.

Magtech ammo seems to use a faster powder than WWBox. It feels different in my hand.

Hi,

You are one of the few Luger shooters, I've ever known, to comment regarding the "feel" of a Luger when you are shooting it. It's quite obvious, from the target attached, that you really know how to shoot a Luger.

Yes, I agree, that there is a different feel depending upon the burning rate of the powder used and, obviously, the charge used.

When I'm shooting a really accurate and functional load, the Luger seems to actually become a natural extension of my hand upon firing. This feeling is a bit rare in the shooting world, so its nice to find someone else that can really appreciate it.


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

While we are on the subject of Magtech, I just ordered some of their commercially available bullets, in another pistol caliber, and can tell you, after weighing some 300 bullets, that their consistency was excellent!!!

Quality control, from this Brazilian firm, seems excellent indeed!!!


Sieger

A fellow shooter uses Magtech ammo in is P08 with good accuracy. But recently is rear toggle link developd cracks and he was forced to replace it. I'm not saying it was the ammo but it happened.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

A fellow shooter uses Magtech ammo in is P08 with good accuracy. But recently is rear toggle link developd cracks and he was forced to replace it. I'm not saying it was the ammo but it happened.

Hi,

The first usual failure point would be where the rear of the toggle link (holding the firing pin retainer) slaps the rear frame abutment. Is this the failure you are describing?

This slapping, eventually, causes these parts to fail, wounding the Luger, permanently.

With hot ammo, you can actually feel this slap in the web of your hand, as it can be very painful.


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

While we are on the subject of Magtech, I just ordered some of their commercially available bullets, in another pistol caliber, and can tell you, after weighing some 300 bullets, that their consistency was excellent!!!

Quality control, from this Brazilian firm, seems excellent indeed!!!


Sieger

I've used their .38 spl wadcutters. They were allright. But my reloads using VV N340 and solid base wadcutters were way better.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

The first usual failure point would be where the rear of the toggle link (holding the firing pin retainer) slaps the rear frame abutment. Is this the failure you are describing?

This slapping, eventually, causes these parts to fail, wounding the Luger, permanently.
Sieger

No, the cracks developed around the operating knobs. Caused, I believe, to the impact of the knobs on the ramp that breakes the toggle joint.
Very similar to this exemple:

Originally Posted by Sieger

With hot ammo, you can actually feel this slap in the web of your hand, as it can be very painful.

Sieger

Disagreable yes. But painful only if you let it slide up on your hand from the previous shot.
Or with people with smaller hands that in order to reach the trigger cannot set it perfectly in the hand web.

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by kurusu

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

Why? There is no way anyone can tell if gun has all matching springs. Springs don't come numbered to the gun. It is all in the springs, four springs work together in co-junction to deliver. Even if still have all originals some of them must be tired after all those years in and out of service. Throw in non matching magazine into equation and you get pretty dis-balanced platform to trouble shoot.

[lugercollector]

I make and install barrels on Lugers here in Canada...The feed ramp angle is critical to proper function!!

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

Why? There is no way anyone can tell if gun has all matching springs. Springs don't come numbered to the gun. It is all in the springs, four springs work together in co-junction to deliver. Even if still have all originals some of them must be tired after all those years in and out of service. Throw in non matching magazine into equation and you get pretty dis-balanced platform to trouble shoot.

Hi,

Agreed, but Mike has experienced this problem with several mint models P-08 he owns and over various manufacturers.

Again, it will be both interesting and challenging to discover the true source of the problem.


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

No, the cracks developed around the operating knobs. Caused, I believe, to the impact of the knobs on the ramp that breakes the toggle joint.
Very similar to this exemple:
Attachment 43861



Disagreable yes. But painful only if you let it slide up on your hand from the previous shot.
Or with people with smaller hands that in order to reach the trigger cannot set it perfectly in the hand web.

Hi,

This is one heck of a crack!!!

Is the contact point with the slide badly peened?


Sieger

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Again, it will be both interesting and challenging to discover the true source of the problem.

The balance of my life suggests bad luck.

To recap:

1. I doubt that I've been limp-wristing. One of my favorite carry guns is a 3" Manurhin MR73 stuffed with six 158 gr full-tilt .357 Magnum pills. I hold my nines the same way I hold that medium-frame Magnum.
2. I've tried all combinations in the Wolff tuning pack. (Correction: the recoil spring weights are 36, 38, and 40 lbs.) The pistol is like new inside. I've tried fresh MecGar mags tuned by GT and minty Haenel-Schmeisser mags. I find no indication of anything going awry, outside of shooting live ammo. I fire a single shot out of a good Luger with more speed and precision than out of any other modern firearm. It chaps my ass that I cannot follow up in kind.
3. I do well with my LP08 Persian Artillery and a 10" pencil-barreled National Match W+F P06/29. Regrettably, they are ill-suited for defensive carry in virtue of bulk and rarity. A standard W+F 06/29, and a similarly sized 1906 Portuguese Mauser, perform nearly as well, but their defensive use is limited by the selection of 7.65mm Para ammo. I'm waiting on a 6" Werle-tuned Mauser P08 in 9mm Para without getting my hopes up.

[LugerVern]

I have had some problems with some old & new P08's that ended up being poorly cut/ rough chambers.

On the old guns the chamber was sometimes too rough and the casing would drag on the way out causing a jam on the next round and the failure to pick up the next round

On new guns like the stainless ones the chamber was way too tight and using a "new" finishing reamer would correct all problems with the functioning of the gun.

Some Questions for everyone: I don't know the answers- not for sure
1) Is there a difference between the brass used in the 40's and now?
2) Could it be that the new powders create too much pressure even though within modern limits?
3)Is the bullet crimping different than used or perhaps tighter?
4) Could primers be an issue, the pressure curve inside a casing varies greatly depending on the primer and this could cause sticking of the case on the back end on a tight chamber?

When you consider that "newly" created lugers have functioning issues even the HK's then something else is going on!!

Just some things to think about

Vern

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

This is one heck of a crack!!!

Is the contact point with the slide badly peened?


Sieger

That picture was just an exemple I found on line, but very similar to what happened.

If by contact point you mean where the knobs hit the ramps, no they were normal for a much used Luger, polished and shiny with blueing gone.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

The balance of my life suggests bad luck.

To recap:

1. I doubt that I've been limp-wristing. One of my favorite carry guns is a 3" Manurhin MR73 stuffed with six 158 gr full-tilt .357 Magnum pills. I hold my nines the same way I hold that medium-frame Magnum.
2. I've tried all combinations in the Wolff tuning pack. (Correction: the recoil spring weights are 36, 38, and 40 lbs.) The pistol is like new inside. I've tried fresh MecGar mags tuned by GT and minty Haenel-Schmeisser mags. I find no indication of anything going awry, outside of shooting live ammo. I fire a single shot out of a good Luger with more speed and precision than out of any other modern firearm. It chaps my ass that I cannot follow up in kind.
3. I do well with my LP08 Persian Artillery and a 10" pencil-barreled National Match W+F P06/29. Regrettably, they are ill-suited for defensive carry in virtue of bulk and rarity. A standard W+F 06/29, and a similarly sized 1906 Portuguese Mauser, perform nearly as well, but their defensive use is limited by the selection of 7.65mm Para ammo. I'm waiting on a 6" Werle-tuned Mauser P08 in 9mm Para without getting my hopes up.

If all your P08s act up with you, and considering your shooting experience.
I would say. Bad luck indeed!
I hope you manage to overcome the problems. Bear in mind that most problems with p08 pistols end up being magazine fitting related.

Just curious, Your Portuguese is a "GNR" right? If so it should be called a 1906/34.

[4 Scale]

Mike I'm sorry to read through this and see your persistent cycling issue.

I have two suggestions one of which you've likely considered:
1. Find a competent Luger gunsmith and have him look at it.
2. This may be nuts but - given your location in LA, contact a film school and see if they would be interested in filming the action of the pistol in extreme slow motion. Film school=cheap alternative. I'm taking classes at a film school in another state or I'd offer to help you myself on this. I would bet film students might be interested if you described the historical nature of these pistols and their "obsolete"/unique cycling action. Film school students love, love firearms in their short films due to the instant tension generated when an actor starts waving one around. Maybe you could trade use of the pistol as a prop in a student film for the slo-mo footage. Or try to locate some other resource to film the action in slow motion to see exactly what is happening.

Good luck, I admire your persistence. With enough effort you'll figure it out.