Luger Frame Tooling Marks Study

[John Sabato]

I would be curious to see the same area in the STAINLESS STEEL LUGER reproduction variations, since they were all made by the same company in Houston, TX regardless of the names they were sold under (Mitchell, SPF, AIMCO, Stoeger, etc.). Those of you who own a one of the stainless steel Lugers, please feel free to contribute photos of this area of the frame to this machine tool mark study...

[saab-bob]

Hi John
Happy to help. Here is a pic of my Mitchell luger frame.
Not much to see.
Bob

[John Sabato]

On the contrary Bob... I find your photo contribution quite interesting... Thanks.

Much of the work done on the original Lugers were machined from forgings...quite of bit of machining compared to today's shortcut methods of manufactuer...

The Mitchell Luger you have so kindly illustrated compared to my editing of Postino's photo below shows how much rougher the casting (versus forging) was, and how some shortcuts were taken in manufacture...

While my eyes can't conduct a brinnell hardness test, what I see in the photo combined with my previous experiences in metallurgy tell me that the stainless steel used was considerably softer than the original guns.

The Houston Texas manufacturer of all of the stainless guns also decided (like the Swiss 06/29, and the Mauser 1970 guns) that these internal cuts shown in this photo were either too difficult or the results unnecessary to modern reproductions of the original design, so they were simplified.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by saab-bob

Hi John
Happy to help. Here is a pic of my Mitchell luger frame.
Not much to see.
Bob

Interior looks like a cast finish to me (not machined)...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Mk VII

See the article on the Vickers Luger by Dr. S.C. Sambrook in Vol.4 No.1 of the Journal of the Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association which discusses the new evidence from the Vickers Board of Directors' meeting Minute book, presently held at Cambridge University Library, Department of Manuscripts and University Archives, ref. GB 012 MS.Vickers

http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb012ms.vickers

I tried to hunt down a digital copy of this; doesn't seem to be one, so I contacted the University...here's the reply -

Dear Richard,

I'm afraid the Vickers archive is not available online.

If you are interested in specific items, you can purchase copies from Imaging Services (http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/imagingservices/) either by email (photo@lib.cam.ac.uk) or their online order form: http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/im...rder_form.html
Please quote the MS Vickers Doc classmark in your order which you can find here:
http://janus.lib.cam.ac.uk/db/node.x...2FMS%20Vickers

Alternatively you are welcome to come to the University Library to consult the archive. Access is in the first place by appointment with our Admissions Office (01223 333084/333030, admissions@lib.cam.ac.uk), from whom you will have to obtain your library card.
When coming to the Library for the first time you will need to bring a letter of introduction which specifies that you wish to have access to manuscript material, together with personal identification such as a passport and a document showing your address. You should make it clear to the Admissions Officer that you wish to use the manuscripts collections of the Library so that the appropriate library card may be issued. For more details see the Admissions web pages: http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/admissions/

The Manuscripts Reading Room is a pencil only room, no pens are allowed. Readers are welcome to use laptop computers and are permitted to take photographs of manuscript and archive material provided the camera is hand-held and set on 'silent' (it must not beep or click). SLRs are not permitted. All readers wishing to use a camera must first ask at the desk. Please note also that some collections are subject to restrictions and may not be photographed; staff will provide guidance on this. All readers are required to register when entering the room, and must leave certain items in the lockers provided. These include, but are not limited to: pens, coats, bags of any kind, items of food or drink and blades of any kind. Full details of Manuscripts Reading Room procedures, including opening hours and fetching times, can be found here:
http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/ma...pts/Using.html

Information on wireless networking can be found here: http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/itfacilities/wireless.html

If you have a more detailed question or are having trouble identifying exactly what you wish to see, please contact my colleague John Wells
(01223 333055, jdw1000@cam.ac.uk) who is the curator of Vickers archive.

Louise Clarke,
Deputy Superintendent,
Manuscripts Reading Room,
Cambridge University Library,
West Road, Cambridge, CB3 9DR

Tel: 01223 765689
email: lr209@cam.ac.uk
www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/manuscripts/

... ...

Pretty strict rules...

[saab-bob]

Postino and John
Yes,the frame of the Mitchell is a casting,while the cannon assembly is mostly a machined forging.
Very similar in manufacture to my very early stainless steel 45 AMT Hardballer . Although I think the AMT has harder metal,as I have noticed no deformation on the frame.It does have galling problems without the correct lubrication,however. The metal on the AMT is also more brittle as I have friends who have cracked their AMT's slides by heavy use.
I guess it is a trade off.
Bob

[pappers1]

Hello, I just bought this frame to make as shooter. I need help to identify this frame? I will post pics of the rear, front, markings, tooling. and frame.

I also need the top barrel and extension with complete toggle. if anyone has one hopefully a mauser top.

[mrerick]

It looks like Mauser's work to me. Frame doesn't have the "hump" so it's likely earlier than 1938, and most likely early 1937 since there are strawed parts.

Marc

[pappers1]

Thanks Marc, I was hoping it was be a mauser frame. The markings I could not find anywhere.

I just have to find a upper portion for it.

Rich

[KABAR2]

Interesting study .... It would appear DWM center cut was done with an end mill with an upright mill while the Erfert was done with something like a key way cutter, on a horizontal mill

[CJS57]

Can anyone explain how Erfurt machined the blind ended square cutout shown in the very first post? The DWM circular end mill process is obvious. But for square corners like Erfurt, a square broach usually needs to go completely through the workpiece?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by CJS57

Can anyone explain how Erfurt machined the blind ended square cutout shown in the very first post? The DWM circular end mill process is obvious. But for square corners like Erfurt, a square broach usually needs to go completely through the workpiece?

Likely used a key-way cutter , horizontally from the top inside;
sure what the marks look like.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by CJS57

Can anyone explain how Erfurt machined the blind ended square cutout shown in the very first post?

Can you link the post? Or post a new pic with the area outlined?

Some tools used at the turn of the century no longer exist, except in the memories of old workers.

[CJS57]

The picture is on page 1 and post #1 of this thread. It is the second picture down by the OP and it is labeled 1917 Erfurt P-08. I see no tool marks at all in the square cut out. It does have the letter U stamped in it.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by CJS57

Can anyone explain how Erfurt machined the blind ended square cutout shown in the very first post? The DWM circular end mill process is obvious. But for square corners like Erfurt, a square broach usually needs to go completely through the workpiece?

The apparent square cutout is an illusion caused by the lighting. The square end of the cut actually stands proud of (above) the milled out area behind it.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by CJS57

The picture is on page 1 and post #1 of this thread. It is the second picture down by the OP and it is labeled 1917 Erfurt P-08.

Unfortunately that is a PhotoBucket link. Many members here can not see it. Here's the 411 on external links -

Originally Posted by John Sabato

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
Attach your photos directly to your post by using the "Go Advance" button to make your post entry. Then there is a "manage attachments" button to allow you to post your photos.

Photos that are hosted elsewhere, often disappear when the hosting website reorganizes its holdings, or goes out of business.

In addition, many of the more knowledgeable people on this forum are unable to see your photos posted elsewhere because they access the forum from their place of employment where internet web storage sites are filtered or prohibited. If they can't see your photos, they can't offer comments or advice.

Thanks, and welcome to the Lugerforum.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by CJS57

The picture is on page 1 and post #1 of this thread. It is the second picture down by the OP and it is labeled 1917 Erfurt P-08. I see no tool marks at all in the square cut out. It does have the letter U stamped in it.

Tool marks are not evident in the Erfurt picture, maybe due to age/rust/or refinishing; look at the Simson picture with the same square edge cut- the tool marks are very clear.

Simson received the tooling from Erfurt for luger production.

[Wastoute]

Fascinating history! The 1928 Luger has tool marks that demonstrate that the machining was done with a "single point planer". That is why the tool marks are linear. The 1940s Luger has tool marks that indicate the tool was rotating but I wonder if the tool may not have been a "single point" tool rather than and endmill type tool as the marks are not all concentric. It almost looks like the tool got dull and gouged into the work there.

[Wastoute]

There are several you tube videos of single point planers in operation so you can get an idea of what they are. They were developed before vertical mills with rotating spindles like the Kearney and Trecker.

[James308]

I have the lower only and was wondering if these marks might help identify when and where it came from.