Nice K-Date photos... - Page 2

Jimbo · 10-26-2002, 03:32 AM

MarkC,

You said there should be thousands of Mauser Lugers with SN 10000x. Not so. Total Mauser Luger production was about 900,000 (Still, "Third Reich Lugers" p. 16) With one Luger so marked from each lot of 10,000 only 90 would have been produced between 1934 and 1942.

We have seen photos of 2 of them -- the K-date in this thread and the 1937 Mauser in Kenyon's, "Lugers at Random." Who is to say these 2 are original? If they are, where are the other 88? Several more should have survived. I like to guess that at least 10% survived the War but who knows?

Personally, I believe Mauser Lugers were marked from 1x to 10000x. I have no basis for this opinion. This opinion is solely based on the near-anal exactitude of the Prussian mind. If guns were stamped from 1-9999, they would actually be produced in lots of 9999 rather than 10000. Gun 1a would then become the 10000 Luger produced. That would create an annoying accounting problem for our precise German who wants to know, not an estimate of production, but to know it precisely!

I cannot fathom the German mind producing Lugers in lots of 9999. It would be "unnatural." I am convinced they produced lots of 10000 for each letter suffix. This only allows 2 possibilities: either 00-9999 or 1 to 10000.

I have seen 2 photos of the latter, none of the former. In the absence of new evidence, I am convinced that the final military Mauser Luger form each lot was SN 10000x. JMHO.

***********************************************

As to the use of a 5-digit die stamp, I am persuaded by Leon's reasoning that the 4-digit die stamp was set to "0000" and the preceding "1" was hand stamped later.

I certainly wish a few more of the original 90 produced would come to light.

FWIW, I have only seen ONE photo of a military Mauser Luger NO. 1, so the fact that we can only account for 2 photos of SN 10000x does not strike me as noteworthy.

Leon DeSpain · 10-26-2002, 04:19 AM

Jimbo,

You are a gentleman and a scholar. I also believe the Third Reich German's produced 1 gun with 5 digits every 10,000 for accounting purposes. They didn't have 5 digit machines and a serial number of 0 wasn't acceptable. The fifth digit was added by hand, as has been mentioned. I would like to again make my point of how many of ANY one serial number anyone has seen.
Percentage wise, very few Lugers survived to be captured & brought back or imported after WWII. Besides the guns lost or destroyed in the war, I have talked to a few vets who were returning from Europe with several handguns in their duffle bags. An announcement was made on the ship that an inspection would be done the following morning and anyone found with more than one handgun would be court martialed. They said that all night GI's would go up on deck and drop Luger's, PP's, PPK's, P.38's and who knows what else overboard. The next morning...... no inspection. Sad but true.

Regards, Leon

Lugerdoc · 10-26-2002, 10:29 AM

I once owned Svw/45 P38 #10000e and the 1 infront of the 0000 was definatedly added with a different die set. I'm of the opinion that all lugers and P38s that are numbered 10000, were mistakes. The automatic serial counter rolled over to 0000 and a pistol was numbered. Rather than rework the number, a 1 was added. Tom H.

Jimbo · 10-26-2002, 06:45 PM

Hi Tom,

I am confused by your statment, "I'm of the opinion that all lugers and P38s that are numbered 10000, were mistakes. "

I have two questions. Do you believe Lugers were manufactured in lots of 10,000 or 9,999? If you believe they were manufactured in lots of 10,000 then do you believe they series began with 1x and ended with 10000s or do you believe they went from 0000x to 9999x?

Thanks for clarifying the above.

Jim Ferreira

MarkC · 10-26-2002, 08:25 PM

Jimbo,

I think Tom meant that the P38's with the extra number .... was added not to ruin a perfectly good frame !!! The machine op made a mistake and why destroy the frame in war time? Add the 1 or 0 and the gun goes into action, they were military accepted after all ... I've posted my pic of the CYQ 1h... begining of the series.. Russian export... how many of the 1x guns are not reported and in someones nightstand??

Let's review the photo's of the guns we have seen.. (numbers off set from the stamping die, 4 digit) Granted the P38's don't belong on this forum but logic would dictate WWII directives would pass on to P38's... Lugers with 5 digit numbers... I am still.... thinking about it.....

Hope you like the pic of my gun, Russian capture , so?....

Mark

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/1h.JPG

Doubs · 10-27-2002, 01:35 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Jimbo:
<strong> Do you believe Lugers were manufactured in lots of 10,000 or 9,999?
Jim Ferreira</strong><hr></blockquote>

To the best of my knowledge, there are absolutely NO Imperial military Lugers numbered 10000. The known range is 1 - 9999 and then it was on to another series of 1 - 9999 with the next suffix letter. Surely with DWM and Erfurt producing more than 1,200,000 Lugers from 1908 (1911 for Erfurt) through 1918, at least one or two with serial number 10000 would have surfaced if they existed at all.

The answer to your question seems to be that Imperial Lugers were produced in blocks of 9999 while Nazi Luger and P-38 military pistols MAY have been produced in blocks of 10000. There is evidence that they were but the limited examples are being questioned as possible "one-off" pistols.... mistake corrections and not normal production serial numbers.

Jimbo · 10-27-2002, 02:10 AM

Doubs,

As a Luger newbie I am only studying the Mausers for now, so I was unaware the Imperial Lugers were serialed in lots of 9999. That dang Prussian mind, who can understand it! They seem so regimented and then to produce Lugers in lots of 9999 just seems to defy logic.

But as Still required, this is my uninformed opinion and I don't profess to know, just guess. Thanks for enlightening me about the Imperial lugers.

Dwight Gruber · 10-27-2002, 07:58 PM

After reviewing this thread four things occur to me.

1. Luger military serial numbering is four digits and a letter suffix (or no suffix, in the case of the first 9,999 pistols). We should be -deeply- suspicious of any deviation, and conservative in weaving speculative webs to justify it.

2. We have only seen the side-frame number on the photographs of the Luger in question. Without seeing the front frame and barrel numbers, all commentary is most highly speculative.

3. Just because the guns are numbered in a 9,999 numbered sequence does not mean that the guns were manufactured in "blocks" of these numbers. There is no reason to suspect that production was not continuous, with simple changing of the serial number dies as necessary.

4. It would be useful to know the mechanism by which the serial numbers were actually stamped on the guns. One correspondent has speculated the use of an incremental-numbering wheel, along with corresponding mistakes in operation. Is there any evidence of the use of such a device?

Alternative speculation: that the serial numbers were applied by placing individual number stamps by hand in a holder, thence stamped on the gun. Such a holder might hold only four numbers (or blank dies in the cases of numbers less than 1,000). Is there any evidence for such a method?

Perchance, does anyone here actually -know- how serial numbers were stamped on Lugers?

I find it interesting to observe that -none- of the numbers on my S/42 are stamped evenly.

--Dwight

Doubs · 10-28-2002, 02:14 AM

Dwight is correct in stating that the pistols were not produced in "blocks" of 9999. That was a poor choice of words on my part and I would have been more correct to have said that Imperial Lugers were numbered in blocks of 1 - 9999 with each year (1911, 1912 etc.) beginning at serial number 1 (no suffix letter) and going to 9999 (no suffix letter).

At that point, the next pistol through the line would have been given number 1 with the suffix letter "a" (or "1a"). The sequence would have continued until they reached "9999a" and then it would begin once more at "1b" and so forth through the alphabet (no letter "j") until the next year began the sequence all over again.

At no time during Imperial German production did Lugers reach the "z" block. Later Mauser production did reach "z" and revert back to "1" (no suffix letter) by not resetting their numbers for each new year. They continued in sequence right through into each new year without a break.

Leon DeSpain · 10-28-2002, 11:33 PM

For those who wish to see more...I have added pictures of the serial # on the frame and on the barrel. If the 0000 was stamped by accident, it was done 3 times by accident. See pictures 5 & 6.

http://www.lmd-militaria.com/page41.html

Pete Ebbink · 11-02-2002, 07:29 PM

Hello Leon, and welcome to the Forum !

I hope you do not get the impression that we were trying to "pick" on your luger...

As a moderator, some of us find something unusual and post it here to start a topic discussion.

This one has been very informative, at least for this beginner...

Mr. Jan C. Still has departed this Forum, but if you want to contact him via e-mail, his address is :

jcstill@ak.net

(I posted his e-mail, here, as he had done so, previoulsy on the Forum so is no secret...)

Jan might be able to help clarify this issue for you. If you get some good info. from Jan, please be sure to post it here on the Forum so others might learn what Jan has to think about a "10000" numbered luger...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Leon DeSpain · 11-03-2002, 12:32 AM

Pete,

Thanks for the comments. I think some scepticism is prudent. The only thing I will say about this situation is that several were very quick to label my gun a fake just because they had not seen one like it before and, as such, didn't believe what they were seeing was original and correct.

I purchased the 10000 K date from a very advanced collector who had built a 40 year collection. He was an engineer, studied guns carefully and was one of the most knowledgeable collecor's I have ever known. He knew Third Reich pistol and rifle finishes like the back of his hand. He owned approximately 1000 of them, had at one time or another possessed 1000's more and collected full time. He could spot a bad gun from several feet away.

While it was in his hands another very well known Luger collector, who shall remain nameless, personally examined the gun but wouldn't come across with the bucks to purchase it at the time, I would guess. After I purchased it he made a very attractive offer in trade items for the 10000 K. He is a very advanced collector, very knowledgeable and I am sure he would not want to acquire a fake for his collection.

Regards, Leon

Dieter08 · 12-04-2002, 09:43 AM

Hi, a friend of mine has a Mauser #10000 in 100% original condition. Next time i am there i try to take a pic of it.

10-26-2002, 10:29 AM	#23
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	I once owned Svw/45 P38 #10000e and the 1 infront of the 0000 was definatedly added with a different die set. I'm of the opinion that all lugers and P38s that are numbered 10000, were mistakes. The automatic serial counter rolled over to 0000 and a pistol was numbered. Rather than rework the number, a 1 was added. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-26-2002, 03:32 AM	#21
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	MarkC, You said there should be thousands of Mauser Lugers with SN 10000x. Not so. Total Mauser Luger production was about 900,000 (Still, "Third Reich Lugers" p. 16) With one Luger so marked from each lot of 10,000 only 90 would have been produced between 1934 and 1942. We have seen photos of 2 of them -- the K-date in this thread and the 1937 Mauser in Kenyon's, "Lugers at Random." Who is to say these 2 are original? If they are, where are the other 88? Several more should have survived. I like to guess that at least 10% survived the War but who knows? Personally, I believe Mauser Lugers were marked from 1x to 10000x. I have no basis for this opinion. This opinion is solely based on the near-anal exactitude of the Prussian mind. If guns were stamped from 1-9999, they would actually be produced in lots of 9999 rather than 10000. Gun 1a would then become the 10000 Luger produced. That would create an annoying accounting problem for our precise German who wants to know, not an estimate of production, but to know it precisely! I cannot fathom the German mind producing Lugers in lots of 9999. It would be "unnatural." I am convinced they produced lots of 10000 for each letter suffix. This only allows 2 possibilities: either 00-9999 or 1 to 10000. I have seen 2 photos of the latter, none of the former. In the absence of new evidence, I am convinced that the final military Mauser Luger form each lot was SN 10000x. JMHO. *********************************************** As to the use of a 5-digit die stamp, I am persuaded by Leon's reasoning that the 4-digit die stamp was set to "0000" and the preceding "1" was hand stamped later. I certainly wish a few more of the original 90 produced would come to light. FWIW, I have only seen ONE photo of a military Mauser Luger NO. 1, so the fact that we can only account for 2 photos of SN 10000x does not strike me as noteworthy.

10-26-2002, 04:19 AM	#22
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Jimbo, You are a gentleman and a scholar. I also believe the Third Reich German's produced 1 gun with 5 digits every 10,000 for accounting purposes. They didn't have 5 digit machines and a serial number of 0 wasn't acceptable. The fifth digit was added by hand, as has been mentioned. I would like to again make my point of how many of ANY one serial number anyone has seen. Percentage wise, very few Lugers survived to be captured & brought back or imported after WWII. Besides the guns lost or destroyed in the war, I have talked to a few vets who were returning from Europe with several handguns in their duffle bags. An announcement was made on the ship that an inspection would be done the following morning and anyone found with more than one handgun would be court martialed. They said that all night GI's would go up on deck and drop Luger's, PP's, PPK's, P.38's and who knows what else overboard. The next morning...... no inspection. Sad but true. Regards, Leon

10-26-2002, 06:45 PM	#24
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Tom, I am confused by your statment, "I'm of the opinion that all lugers and P38s that are numbered 10000, were mistakes. " I have two questions. Do you believe Lugers were manufactured in lots of 10,000 or 9,999? If you believe they were manufactured in lots of 10,000 then do you believe they series began with 1x and ended with 10000s or do you believe they went from 0000x to 9999x? Thanks for clarifying the above. Jim Ferreira

10-26-2002, 08:25 PM	#25
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Jimbo, I think Tom meant that the P38's with the extra number .... was added not to ruin a perfectly good frame !!! The machine op made a mistake and why destroy the frame in war time? Add the 1 or 0 and the gun goes into action, they were military accepted after all ... I've posted my pic of the CYQ 1h... begining of the series.. Russian export... how many of the 1x guns are not reported and in someones nightstand?? Let's review the photo's of the guns we have seen.. (numbers off set from the stamping die, 4 digit) Granted the P38's don't belong on this forum but logic would dictate WWII directives would pass on to P38's... Lugers with 5 digit numbers... I am still.... thinking about it..... Hope you like the pic of my gun, Russian capture , so?.... Mark http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/1h.JPG

10-27-2002, 01:35 AM	#26
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,743 Thanks: 828 Thanked 1,793 Times in 591 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Jimbo: <strong> Do you believe Lugers were manufactured in lots of 10,000 or 9,999? Jim Ferreira</strong><hr></blockquote> To the best of my knowledge, there are absolutely NO Imperial military Lugers numbered 10000. The known range is 1 - 9999 and then it was on to another series of 1 - 9999 with the next suffix letter. Surely with DWM and Erfurt producing more than 1,200,000 Lugers from 1908 (1911 for Erfurt) through 1918, at least one or two with serial number 10000 would have surfaced if they existed at all. The answer to your question seems to be that Imperial Lugers were produced in blocks of 9999 while Nazi Luger and P-38 military pistols MAY have been produced in blocks of 10000. There is evidence that they were but the limited examples are being questioned as possible "one-off" pistols.... mistake corrections and not normal production serial numbers.

10-27-2002, 02:10 AM	#27
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doubs, As a Luger newbie I am only studying the Mausers for now, so I was unaware the Imperial Lugers were serialed in lots of 9999. That dang Prussian mind, who can understand it! They seem so regimented and then to produce Lugers in lots of 9999 just seems to defy logic. But as Still required, this is my uninformed opinion and I don't profess to know, just guess. Thanks for enlightening me about the Imperial lugers.

10-27-2002, 07:58 PM	#28
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	After reviewing this thread four things occur to me. 1. Luger military serial numbering is four digits and a letter suffix (or no suffix, in the case of the first 9,999 pistols). We should be -deeply- suspicious of any deviation, and conservative in weaving speculative webs to justify it. 2. We have only seen the side-frame number on the photographs of the Luger in question. Without seeing the front frame and barrel numbers, all commentary is most highly speculative. 3. Just because the guns are numbered in a 9,999 numbered sequence does not mean that the guns were manufactured in "blocks" of these numbers. There is no reason to suspect that production was not continuous, with simple changing of the serial number dies as necessary. 4. It would be useful to know the mechanism by which the serial numbers were actually stamped on the guns. One correspondent has speculated the use of an incremental-numbering wheel, along with corresponding mistakes in operation. Is there any evidence of the use of such a device? Alternative speculation: that the serial numbers were applied by placing individual number stamps by hand in a holder, thence stamped on the gun. Such a holder might hold only four numbers (or blank dies in the cases of numbers less than 1,000). Is there any evidence for such a method? Perchance, does anyone here actually -know- how serial numbers were stamped on Lugers? I find it interesting to observe that -none- of the numbers on my S/42 are stamped evenly. --Dwight

10-28-2002, 02:14 AM	#29
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,743 Thanks: 828 Thanked 1,793 Times in 591 Posts	Dwight is correct in stating that the pistols were not produced in "blocks" of 9999. That was a poor choice of words on my part and I would have been more correct to have said that Imperial Lugers were numbered in blocks of 1 - 9999 with each year (1911, 1912 etc.) beginning at serial number 1 (no suffix letter) and going to 9999 (no suffix letter). At that point, the next pistol through the line would have been given number 1 with the suffix letter "a" (or "1a"). The sequence would have continued until they reached "9999a" and then it would begin once more at "1b" and so forth through the alphabet (no letter "j") until the next year began the sequence all over again. At no time during Imperial German production did Lugers reach the "z" block. Later Mauser production did reach "z" and revert back to "1" (no suffix letter) by not resetting their numbers for each new year. They continued in sequence right through into each new year without a break.

10-28-2002, 11:33 PM	#30
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	For those who wish to see more...I have added pictures of the serial # on the frame and on the barrel. If the 0000 was stamped by accident, it was done 3 times by accident. See pictures 5 & 6. http://www.lmd-militaria.com/page41.html

11-02-2002, 07:29 PM	#31
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Hello Leon, and welcome to the Forum ! I hope you do not get the impression that we were trying to "pick" on your luger... As a moderator, some of us find something unusual and post it here to start a topic discussion. This one has been very informative, at least for this beginner... Mr. Jan C. Still has departed this Forum, but if you want to contact him via e-mail, his address is : jcstill@ak.net (I posted his e-mail, here, as he had done so, previoulsy on the Forum so is no secret...) Jan might be able to help clarify this issue for you. If you get some good info. from Jan, please be sure to post it here on the Forum so others might learn what Jan has to think about a "10000" numbered luger... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-03-2002, 12:32 AM	#32
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Pete, Thanks for the comments. I think some scepticism is prudent. The only thing I will say about this situation is that several were very quick to label my gun a fake just because they had not seen one like it before and, as such, didn't believe what they were seeing was original and correct. I purchased the 10000 K date from a very advanced collector who had built a 40 year collection. He was an engineer, studied guns carefully and was one of the most knowledgeable collecor's I have ever known. He knew Third Reich pistol and rifle finishes like the back of his hand. He owned approximately 1000 of them, had at one time or another possessed 1000's more and collected full time. He could spot a bad gun from several feet away. While it was in his hands another very well known Luger collector, who shall remain nameless, personally examined the gun but wouldn't come across with the bucks to purchase it at the time, I would guess. After I purchased it he made a very attractive offer in trade items for the 10000 K. He is a very advanced collector, very knowledgeable and I am sure he would not want to acquire a fake for his collection. Regards, Leon

12-04-2002, 09:43 AM	#33
Dieter08 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi, a friend of mine has a Mauser #10000 in 100% original condition. Next time i am there i try to take a pic of it.