Cartridges are too short

[Chickenthief]

Dont even get a Limey started on this!
He would call the cartridge for a bullet and a bullet for a bullet head.

If you involve journalists all standards are off.


And then there is the good old:

[Edward Tinker]

I have been waiting a long time to use this picture

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

This is interesting. If a lowball bid will yield some .30 ammo that is other than the readily available standard fare, I will add it to my little collection. I measured some, and here are the results:

Winchester White Box......................1.150

Winchester Red and Yellow Box.......1.150

Remington Green and Yellow Box.....1.131

Remington Dark Green Box..............1.134

Fiocchi Gray Box Brown Printing.......1.127

Fiocchi Purple Box............................1.119

According to the discussion, I'm amazed that any of this stuff works at all, but my shooter works without complaints.

Hi;

Can you shoot a full magazine of 8, with no jamming, with all of these?

Though I'm not doubting your honesty, I would seriously doubt a Luger would pull this off.

Sieger

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi;

Can you shoot a full magazine of 8, with no jamming, with all of these?

Though I'm not doubting your honesty, I would seriously doubt a Luger would pull this off.

Sieger

I must confess that my statement is not in absolute terms! But in response to your question, I'd say noticeably more often than not. I used the gun in IDPA matches with that Berdan primed Scandinavian surplus ammo that Samco sold before they closed the business. The combination presented no consistent issues, though I can't say there weren't more stoppages than the one round I do remember dropping the mag to clear.

I did have some trouble with some boxes of Fiocchi SJSP rounds which seemed to be gritty on the business ends, with a thin film of corrosion. They would bind in the mag, until I shined up the ends again. I'm glad that is gone.

Maybe my love for the gun inspires selective validation! So, I will do a test and pay attention. I usually don't shoot the old, odd stuff, but use Fiocchi at home, where I can save the boxer primed brass. I will shoot two MecGar mags of each over the next few days and report back with results. Here are two more OAL:

Swedish surplus........1.167

Norma.....................1.151

[4 Scale]

I have a 1906 .30 Luger pistol that is finicky re: ammo, it won't reliably chamber. 30 Luger Fiocchi but does reliably chamber Prvi. In comparing OAL, Prvi is longer than Fiocchi. As I can find no other physical difference between the rounds I have concluded that Fiocchi OAL is too short for that particular Luger.

Fiocchi chambers just fine in my three other Lugers chambered for .30 Luger. So, I conclude most Lugers chambered in .30 Luger can tolerate shorter ammo (as Dwight explains in post #11) but if a FTF (nose-high jam) is encountered, it is worth testing longer ammo in that pistol.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

There is another pertinent difference between the 7,65 Parabellum cartridge and the DWM 9x19 round (actually, a couple of pertinent differences).

With the too-short 9mm round, the bullets snag on the top edge of the chamber. The 7,65 bullet, being narrower, does not present its ogive to the top of the chamber, so does not get caught up even if the OAL is a fraction shorter.

The original 9x19mm design used a truncated-cone bullet. Although not specifically designed this way for proper feeding, it coincidentally successfully mimics the ogive properties of the 7,65mm round. Some modern Winchester 9mm ball ammunition has a gently truncated-cone bullet.

--Dwight

Dwight;

Taking a good look at that very angled grip, I think you will find that the cartridges loaded toward the bottom of the eight shot magazine cause the upper most cartridges to cant downwardly. This downward canting is the source of the infamous "Luger Jam".

This is why proper OAL is so critical with this design.

This is true for both the 9mm and the 7.65mm.

Sieger

[Puretexan]

There was a guy on youtube that was having the same problem with a 45 magazine.
He noticed when he loaded several rounds in, that the top round would wiggle up and
down at the front. He solved it with a stronger spring in the magazine. maybe that is
the answer to Luger problems.

[Major Tom]

I have found the Hornady 124gr. 9mm mimics the truncated nose of the original round. I'm away from my reloading room, but, I think the Hornady bullet is lettered HTX or ?, it is a hollow point.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

There was a guy on youtube that was having the same problem with a 45 magazine.
He noticed when he loaded several rounds in, that the top round would wiggle up and
down at the front. He solved it with a stronger spring in the magazine. maybe that is
the answer to Luger problems.

That is correct, Tex,- a weak spring causes all sorts of problems.

Wolf offers "extra 10% power" round springs and new zig-zag springs for the later mags.

GT also has springs, and when he works on/ re-works a mag it most of the time gets a new spring.

A really weak spring won't raise a cartridge fast enough to chamber, nor will it operate the hold open.

[cirelaw]

Do gun ranges make more money selling ammo or collecting brass?

[ithacaartist]

Eric,

A retail markup for ammo might be around 25% Scrap brass can be sold for around $1.50 per pound. I think the answer would generally be the ammo sales.

[DavidJayUden]

My guess would be that salvage brass sales would be behind ammo sales, target sales, range time and firearm rental/sales. However the price of pick-up brass goes up sharply once sorted by caliber.
dju

[cirelaw]

http://rangereport.org/clean-up-on-discarded-ammo/

[Puretexan]

My indoor range doesn't want you to pickup your brass. I have a friend that machines
brass quite a bit. Probably 30% of his business is turning brass rings for pressure washers. He has an immense brass left over amount. The price jumps up and down
just like gold.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

My indoor range doesn't want you to pickup your brass. I have a friend that machines
brass quite a bit. Probably 30% of his business is turning brass rings for pressure washers. He has an immense brass left over amount. The price jumps up and down
just like gold.

Price for "yellow brass" scrap this month- so far- range $1.24 to $2.20 per lb.

[cirelaw]

What happens to all the toxic lead?

[DavidJayUden]

RE: toxic lead, At trap and skeet ranges we have lead re-claimers who strip the soil, sift it, and sell the used shot back (to me) for about 3/4-4/5 the price of new. I've shot reclaimed shot for years and years.
I suspect that the indoor ranges have a similar program.
dju

[DonVoigt]

Lead- we have thoroughly hijacked Paul's original thread.

Just remember, lead is only "toxic" if you eat it, drink it, breathe the fumes if it is molten- or if you get shot with a lead "bullet".

Better not to get me started on those "toxic" chemicals, like table salt, water, oxygen, and on and on; least of all those "extremely toxic" chemicals we choose to call "medicines"!

[Puretexan]

Don I think we got about all we could out of Cartridges, so might as well change a
little.
By the way I went into Walmart and asked the guy where the Cartridges were.
He said ...over by the printers. Then I asked where the bullets were and he said they are in Sporting Goods.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

Don I think we got about all we could out of Cartridges, so might as well change a
little.
By the way I went into Walmart and asked the guy where the Cartridges were.
He said ...over by the printers. Then I asked where the bullets were and he said they are in Sporting Goods.

Well you are in Texas, after all.....