Looking for more info. BYF 41 SN-3877

[Yukon Jack]

Syd, thanks for the reply. You will never insult me by asking a question. The gun has not been re-blued. This according to the gunsmith that examined it and the small amount of wear. It's funny the more information I get from the forum and in my own research the more questions I come up with. This process is fascinating and addictive at the same time. As best I can tell from my research there were about 3 million lugers made from 1908-1945 give or take a few hundred thousand. Does anybody have an approximation on how many were black widows? Any guess on value? I want to make sure I am properly insured.

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by Yukon Jack

Syd, thanks for the reply. You will never insult me by asking a question. The gun has not been re-blued. This according to the gunsmith that examined it and the small amount of wear. It's funny the more information I get from the forum and in my own research the more questions I come up with. This process is fascinating and addictive at the same time. As best I can tell from my research there were about 3 million lugers made from 1908-1945 give or take a few hundred thousand. Does anybody have an approximation on how many were black widows? Any guess on value? I want to make sure I am properly insured.

Jack,

Mauser made about 1 million Lugers. None were made as Black Widows.

This was/is an unknown term except in the USA; and certainly not one used to describe the Model P.08.

However, there were about 120,000 to 130,000, maybe a little more, late production P.08s made from late 1941 and all through 1942 by Mauser. And there were some "clean out the parts", so called "out of cycle" production in 1943.

This late production variation had black plastic grip panels and Type 6 magazines which had a back plastic bottom.

The reason it is difficult to say exactly how many had Late Production characteristics is that there was no definite cut off between switching from wood to plastic grip panels and aluminum bottom to black plastic bottom magazines.

But it started in the middle of 1941 and by 1942, virtually all production had Late Production characteristics.

But again, this is subject to exception, because gun manufacturers NEVER throw anything away unless the part or component has been "condemned". So if they found a bucket of Type 5 magazines they used them. If they found a case of wood grip panels they used them.

Hope this helps. Again too many words but unfortunately there are few absolutes or one word answers in collecting. But, in any case, the few absolutes that do exist should be respected.

Hope this helps,

John

[Gebirg]

Just great, but who of all persons invented the "black widow" name?

[derf0018]

Gebirg:

Ralph Shattuck was most likely the one who came up with the "Black Widow" designation.
It is a marketing ploy only and has no other meaning.

Fred

[Gebirg]

Fred,
Thank you:-)
We know that name here in Norway also, but we dont like it or use it in my collector group...

[alanint]

Ralph needed a strategy to romanticize those "cheap late war pistols with plastic grips and unmatched, plastic magazine bottoms". Although hard to believe now, those guns were once looked upon as "less desirable".
By creating an intriguing comic book name for them, (and perhaps spinning some tall tales about their alleged purpose/use), interest and a market were created for these late production guns.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Yukon Jack

This according to the gunsmith that examined it...

Originally Posted by Yukon Jack

Grips are original according to the gunsmith that looked at it and he did refer to it as a black widow...

"Gunsmiths", "dealers", "relatives of the vet who brought it back" stories and descriptions all need to be taken with a grain of salt.

My LGS is a great guy but is not knowledgeable about Lugers or pretty much anything military. He started a business to earn a living, meaning he is a JOATAMON.

John/guns3545 seems knowledgeable and his comments are certainly illuminating. I'm not a collector but what he has told you is way more than any other single Luger I've read about here in six years.

Lugers have passed through many hands over the years. Some owners have 'improved' them by substituting parts that may not have been original. Grips come to mind immediately. Bakelite grips are to my mind more desirable than plastic and can be distinguished by methods described elsewhere in this forum [Search].

Nice Luger; hopefully the first of many.

[alvin]

Dealers normally handling American guns in business cannot tell much those German pistols. I have met quite a few examples in the past. The difference is too big to apply one domain into another. But, that may not apply to European gun dealers,,, they handle European guns everyday.... Is that a safe assumption? No?

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by alvin

Dealers normally handling American guns in business cannot tell much those German pistols. I have met quite a few examples in the past. The difference is too big to apply one domain into another. But, that may not apply to European gun dealers,,, they handle European guns everyday.... Is that a safe assumption? No?

I think it boils down to experience, combined with the ability to do research, along with a big helping of mechanical aptitude. We don't really know something unless we have accurate information about it. So, although European dealers are probably generally more experienced in handling European guns, an individual dealer can be totally ignorant about one make/model or another.

My experience, albeit perhaps still callow, with toggle pistols has accumulated as time has progressed. Having learned a bit about the Parabellum, and acquired some examples, I added Erma's toggle pistols to my list of pursuits/interests. Although I could disassemble a Luger entirely at that point, these skills were not particularly transferable to the care and maintenance of an Erma, even though they both have "toggles". I encountered a cheap, but ailing Erma at an Ohio gun show. After embarrassing myself by my demonstrated inability to field strip this one, I found out how to do it after returning home.

As suggested, it is impossible for every "gunsmith" to know everything. Seek advice from the knowledgeable. Due diligence is absolutely paramount in discovering just who this might be. There are too many credulous collectors who do not not know how to judge the quality of advice. This keeps prices up, I think, and confusion rampant--thus thrusting the door even wider open for charlatans who may wish to enter! Misinformation, even (maybe particularly) that which is well-meant, is not a good thing.

(/rant)