A Reblue Comparison~

[cirelaw]

TKS What method has the finest results? Do you know when they made the change?

[John Sabato]

Rust blue is more beautiful... Salt bluing in my opinion is more durable... but that is a subjective thing. The change from rust to salt bluing was made as a wartime expedient in manufacturing in mid 1937 at Mauser.

[cirelaw]

Thank You John. The early commercials seem much prettier!

[Olle]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Actually Eric, just the opposite... the whole gun starts out white unfinished steel. Then the rust bluing was applied discreetly to each part leaving the white exposed (internal surfaces) where it was thought it wouldn't matter that bluing wasn't applied. VERY labor intensive!

So do the salt blued Lugers have these bare surfaces? Salt bluing is a dip process, so they should end up blued inside and out. I only have rust blued Lugers so I don't have anything to compare with. Then again, "I have read on the Internet" that some salt blued Lugers had galling problems due to the tight tolerances, and that they had to leave the bluing off of some bearing surfaces. If they did that, it would be interesting to know how it was done.

Anyway, I have been wondering about that white metal for quite a while, it seems like it would be almost impossible to get such crisp lines without masking it off or polishing after the bluing. I have rust blued several guns, but despite my best efforts, I always end up with some bluing where it shouldn't be. This makes me wonder how they did it in a production setting. Seen from a time saving perspective, it would make sense to do some final polishing after bluing if you want that effect.

[John Sabato]

Bluing is simply corrosion resistance and offers no friction to moving parts. I don't know the source of the stories about salt blued guns "galling" but IMHO you can classify it as old collector wives tales. I almost fell off my seat when I read that.

[cirelaw]

Did the other luger producers use the simular blueing methods. It must have been more difficult during the war especially! Nothing beats the Erfurts with proof and inspection markings during that time. They all seem to be simular while preserving their beauty and intregity. They retain their quality and allure! It amazes me the overwhelming numbers of fine lugers produced during war time and the Weimer period with all the restrictions. One reason I love the police lugers luger for for a human part of German historiy. More so the unit marked lugers realizing the hell most have gone through! You can read German history by the type of luger produced and its markings. 'They are even more relevent today than ever as so they will become in future generations. Lugers will never change only their owners. Your opinion and questions will be read and will play a valuable asset in its' future collectors~~~

[Olle]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Bluing is simply corrosion resistance and offers no friction to moving parts. I don't know the source of the stories about salt blued guns "galling" but IMHO you can classify it as old collector wives tales. I almost fell off my seat when I read that.

Well, bluing is a different material added to the surface of the steel, so I don't find it unlikely that it could change the characteristics, for better or for worse. I don't know where I found this information though, it's just one of them things that stuck in my mind when I read it.

So are salt blued Lugers blued inside out like other salt blued guns, or do they have the same, bare surfaces as the rust blued guns?

[mrerick]

Actually, Bluing is a transformation / electrochemical conversion of the surface layer of steel molecules. It's not really the addition of anything but oxygen. There is a good article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29

Iron oxide (steel being iron and carbon) occurs in several different molecular forms. The form we call "Bluing" is magnetite, Fe3O4, the black oxide form of iron oxide. Magnetite is denser and thus harder than steel,

Rust is the Fe2O3 form of iron oxide. Rust is soft because it increases in volume many times during it's chemical conversion.

Bluing works to protect steel from rusting because the top surface is already oxidized into magnetite. This is why you can see red oxide rust deep in the surface of old blued guns. The layer just beneath the top layer isn't magnetite, and as steel can continue to oxidize into red Fe2O3 oxide over the years.

Marc

[LugerVern]

Nice post, new readers/ collectors should understand that it is possible to bring a gun back to nearly factory standard leaving all markings intact. It is very labor intensive but possible. Rare lugers are often the target of such restorations. Interesting though, almost always at least one short cut is done. I dont know if this is simply human nature or what but it happens often enough that it is something to understand and look for. Always look at a gun in it's entirety and dont focus on any particular aspect when buying rare guns.

My two cents worth and not worth much but put the two cents in your pocket, it will save you thousands

Vern

[cirelaw]

I've seen Ted Green's work first hand! It take allot of knowledge time and patience. The give away is generally sanding its features away. Can't the remove the old with chemical without eracing the high points. Somehow Ted overcomes that hurdle!The other issue is strawing which he has mastered. Pull up his site and let me know what you all think~~Eric http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/

[Olle]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Actually, Bluing is a transformation / electrochemical conversion of the surface layer of steel molecules. It's not really the addition of anything but oxygen.

Salt bluing and rust bluing are indeed oxidation processes. What I call "a different material" is the oxide, as it has a different chemical structure and different properties than the steel. Anodizing is also an oxidation process, it adds nothing more than oxygen to the aluminum, but it does also change the characteristics of the surface. It protects it from further oxidation, but the oxidation also changes other properties. In the case of aluminum, the oxide is harder than the aluminum (not sure about the lubricity though) so anodizing actually prevents galling.

Anyway, my point is that any oxide layer can change more than the resistance to corrosion, and the question is if bluing will increase or decrease the lubricity. It may not even be the lubricity of the oxide layer that matters, it could also be its ability to retain lubricants.

If this really mattered on salt blued Lugers is another story, but knowing the anal nature of German engineers, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they actually did study this.

[cirelaw]

Randall Gibson in The Kriegoff Parabellum writes~

[Olle]

Thanks Eric!

If you read the caption under the picture of the frame, it does actually say that they polished some surfaces to reduce friction.

[cirelaw]

It proves the books usually have most of the answers!! They need some revisiting~~Eric

[cirelaw]

My question! The reblues I have have been growned down losing it features. Can't the prep a gun with chemical means instead of abrasives!

[John Sabato]

Eric, you can remove the bluing with chemicals, but you can't remove rust, pits, scratches, etc. That is why the amateurs use abrasives and buffing wheels.

To quote the most famous person who ever lived:

"Father-forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Ted Green is no longer an amateur... but I am proud to say that I knew him when he was!

[cirelaw]

The difference is striking!!

[cirelaw]

I need help with this one~ What is considered a restored as opposed to a just a reblued or reconditioned. How is value diminshed by a tiny replacement such spring that was broken and replaced in battle? How does a replacement part affect it value and originality. An Erfurt on the other hand has just about every part individually proofed. A replacement numbered spring can be noticed while a replacement on a DWM won't be as it isn't marked! What is meant by 100% complete~ This one seems the most troublesome! I'm aware a mutual mistake is fine unless the seller misrepresents or misleads the guns' condition!! Generally what part is most prone to breakage~~This is why I purchased a shooter from George Anderson who made me aware of fireing an all correct historically significent luger over a hundred years old is stupid! There could never be a luger blue book as lugers unlike most are truly individual like personalities and history. Each unique and most have their own individual story and are therefor unique in themselves. Starting from a couple of hundred dollars to almost one million and everywhere in between~ Eric

[The Virginian]

Actually Rust Blue is more durable and more rust resistant than modern hot salt tank bluing. If done with at least 6 pulls (rusting, boiling in distilled water and carding) the layer of magnatite or "black iron rust" is much thicker than the black oxide layer of lye based hot salt blue. In most cases the rust blue is not as shiney as hot salt bluing, but it looks more soft, translucent and deeper. I have carefully rust blued basket case non-matching lugers with strawed parts for EFI, LLC (of Sons of Guns fame-espisode "Master Blaster") clients with excellent results. These were pre-war mix master guns that were almost brown with little or no blue left. Hand polishing as to not disturb roll marks and stamps is the key and removing all metal flaws helps keep the gun looking original.

[Sergio Natali]

Eric

Quoting what John said
... the whole gun starts out white unfinished steel. Then the rust bluing was applied discreetly to each part leaving the white exposed (internal surfaces) where it was thought it wouldn't matter that bluing wasn't applied... Unquote

That's why they numbered so many parts that once blued had to be refitted together.

Thanks for the interesting side by side comparison!

Sergio