Those Mysterious Forty-fives

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

And from wikipedia 1mm is very small, 1.0 mm — 0.03937 inches or 5/127

Or, to put it in real world values, about 10 sheets of lined notebook paper...

That is still enough to prevent a M1906 cartridge from chambering in a .45 ACP chamber; or to prevent a .45 ACP round from being reliably fired from an M1906 chamber...(One doesn't go in far enough, the other goes too far in)...

Purely hypothetical, unless you have a time machine...<looks at door to see if Postino has returned from the future>...

[alvin]

The cartridge reason is so strong.

1m/m difference in head space is big difference. From Steve's post, "Additionally, the Aberman gun does not have the "stepped chamber" - patented by Luger - of the Number 1 trials gun". Sounds like the head space on Aberman being a variable (or, no strict head space), could that explain it might be able to fit 1m/m longer cartridge?

[tuica]

Greetings from a newbe Lugermann. Regarding the 45ACP US Army trials Luger, a friend and I had a discussion the other day over the possible auction price on such a rare pistol. I realize this may be a tough question, but curious as to what the experts on this site may peg as a reasonable (?!) price for such a rare bird, say in 90% condition.

My friend, who is no stranger to collectable firearms would fix the winning bid at around $100,000. My opinion is that some very wealthy collector would pay between $500,000 and 1 Milllion dollars for one of these historic pistols. Which of us is closer to the truth? Thanks in advance for your replies. Cheers.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by tuica

My friend, who is no stranger to collectable firearms would fix the winning bid at around $100,000.

He'd be out of luck.

Do a Search here and at Still's forum for "The Million Dollar Luger".

[SteveM]

I seem to remember that the last time that the 45 Luger was on the market it went for somewhere between 7-8 hundred K. Less than the last time it was sold.

[alanint]

That is my recollection as well.

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by postino

Or, to put it in real world values, about 10 sheets of lined notebook paper...

That is still enough to prevent a M1906 cartridge from chambering in a .45 ACP chamber; or to prevent a .45 ACP round from being reliably fired from an M1906 chamber...(One doesn't go in far enough, the other goes too far in)...

Purely hypothetical, unless you have a time machine...<looks at door to see if Postino has returned from the future>...

It would be very practical to fire a .45 ACP cartridge in a barrel chambered for the 1906 .45 cartridge. Consider the Astra 400, chambered in 9mm Largo. It is claimed that a cartridge as short as a 9mm Parabellum can be shot in this pistol, and and I have done so. The pistol functioned reliably, although the empty casings were extremely dirty from the powder blowing back into the chamber from the excessive headspace. The headspace difference between the 9mm Largo and the 9mm Parabellum is orders of magnitude more than the difference between the .45 ACP and the 1906 .45.

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Would a field-replaced barrel at an armory level have been marked with the pistol SN and gauge marks?

Luger barrel replacement was not a field-level repair, as the replacement would need top be to be re-proofed. The replacement would assuredly have been serial-numbered.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

On the issue of firing the .45 ACP in the longer chamber:

With some years of gunsmithing to include re-barrelling and re-chambering well behind me (by a couple of decades)... IMHO, while it may be true that the firing of such a combination may not be "reliable"... it would certainly be safely possible, and the taper of the .45 ACP case dimensions, would also lend itself to providing an "alternative" headspace surface that would likely hold the case sufficiently for the extractor to slip into the extraction groove... There would be plenty of headspace friction between the cartridge case and the chamber, and the holding power of the extractor should not be overlooked.

I would personally have no problem attempting to fire the .45 ACP round in the longer chamber.

Somebody send me their .45 Test Luger from the trials, and I will be happy to make a video of me shooting several boxes of modern .45 ACP ball ammo through it and post it here. I would even pay the return postage to send it back to the generous collector who would take me up on this offer!

Also IMHO, My friend Dwight Gruber's analogy to the Astra 400 mentioned previously is quite valid... shooting shorter cartridges in a longer chamber may not be recommended practice, but it also isn't much of a problem. While the revolver cartridges are headspaced on the rim, Shooting .38 special in a .357 magnum chamber, and .44 special in a .44 Magnum chamber is done all the time.

[Edward Tinker]

Dwight, John, this can't be true, I already said that it was possible and probable and several folks told me no way...

Look, if I can and have shot my S&W 25-2 (45 acp) without moon clips, then you can shoot 45 acp in a Test Luger.....

[John Sabato]

Ed, What "can't be true?"

I have to stand by my assessment... unless the ammunition is undersized, I can't see how it couldn't work.

As far as shooting your S&W 25-2 without half-moon clips... Sure you can... look in the chambers and you will see that the case headspaces on the shoulder in the chamber... the half moon clip is so the extractor can eject the empties...without the half moons (or even moons... I have seen full moon clips for that gun and the 1917's) there is no way for a revolver to grab the cases for ejection.

The "clips" (properly named... as they are not "magazines") have nothing to do with headspace on your revolver.


Postino! We don't need no stinkin time machine! To quote the late great Elmer Keith, "HECK, I was THERE!)

Would somebody who has the information please be so kind as to post dimensioned drawings of the two cartridge cases so everyone can see the differences?

[tuica]

Thanks for your replies on the 45ACP Luger. I will pass this along. Cheers.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Would somebody who has the information please be so kind as to post dimensioned drawings of the two cartridge cases so everyone can see the differences?

I couldn't find a drawing for the 1906 Colt 45 Auto [precursor to the 45 ACP] but I did find the dimensions in COTW, IIRC...I think I posted them to the other thread; I'll see if I can find the reference again...

Someone else here seemed familiar with the 1906 Colt 45 Auto cartridge; perhaps they have a really old book with a dimensioned drawing...

[alanint]

John,

Ed was being facecious. The way I read his post, Ed totally agrees with you.

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Ed, What "can't be true?"

I have to stand by my assessment... unless the ammunition is undersized, I can't see how it couldn't work.

As far as shooting your S&W 25-2 without half-moon clips... Sure you can... look in the chambers and you will see that the case headspaces on the shoulder in the chamber... the half moon clip is so the extractor can eject the empties...without the half moons (or even moons... I have seen full moon clips for that gun and the 1917's) there is no way for a revolver to grab the cases for ejection.

The "clips" (properly named... as they are not "magazines") have nothing to do with headspace on your revolver.


Postino! We don't need no stinkin time machine! To quote the late great Elmer Keith, "HECK, I was THERE!)

Would somebody who has the information please be so kind as to post dimensioned drawings of the two cartridge cases so everyone can see the differences?

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by alanint

John,

Ed was being facecious. The way I read his post, Ed totally agrees with you.

heh heh

[sheepherder]

John -

Here's the chart referenced to in the previous page...The M1906 is dimensionally different from the final M1911 cartridge...

[John Sabato]

Ed is pretty good at that "facecious" stuff!

Postino, I agree that according to the chart the case length is different, as is the size of the extraction groove... but what about overall diameter of the case at the case head, and the mouth? angle of the case taper? What is the standard bullet diameter? .452" ?

If an SAAMI specification .45 ACP loaded round is inserted into a 1906 specification dimensioned chamber will it drop into the chamber with excessive headspace from the base to the breechface?

or will it likely stop based on case taper close enough for the breech to allow the extractor to work? and close enough for the firing pin to enable cartridge ignition?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

If an SAAMI specification .45 ACP loaded round is inserted into a 1906 specification dimensioned chamber will it drop into the chamber with excessive headspace from the base to the breechface?

or will it likely stop based on case taper close enough for the breech to allow the extractor to work? and close enough for the firing pin to enable cartridge ignition?

IMO if the firing pin is long enough to reach the cartridge wherever it is, it will fire...Recoil will fit it to the breech face & extractor...(Yes, I'm contradicting my earlier comment)...

My Colt 38 Super has something like .036" headspace, but the firing pin is long enough [protrudes through the breech face] to reach & fire the cartridges...With no noticeable ill effect or excessive recoil...

[LWaali]

and ya'll thought me nuts when I asked about the 400 Thanks for the confirmation Dwight and John!

[John Sabato]

Isn't the .38 Super considered Semi-Rimmed, and actually headspaces on the "rim"? At least that is what I THINK I remember... and .38 ACP was "rimless" like most of the auto pistol cartridges, as I recall...