1./A.R.1.40 any info on this unit please - Page 2

olearyjms2 · 06-24-2012, 09:04 AM

Its all realy interesting. Just hard to source the info. So much history in one pistol.

Ron Smith · 06-24-2012, 09:43 AM

The police property mark on the frame is a plus. VoPos are rarely found with the property mark still in tact, if it was ever applied at all. It increases the collectability.

Here's a link to Mark Castell's website. Check out his EG VoPo Lugers.

http://www.p38guns.com/East%20German%20Guns.htm

Ron

olearyjms2 · 06-24-2012, 10:46 AM

Thanks Ron. I originally bought this luger because it was simply the 1st one that i came across in my quest to own a luger. Its realy cool to keep uncovering all these peices to the puzzle of its past. Thanks for the link.

Just on the grips. It does seem that the current ones i have are original most of the vopo's ive seen have the bakerlite type. I may try to source a pair.

I didnt know the vopo property stamp was a rare find. Ive aslo found a "u" with a symbol above it on the side of the toggle. Im told this is also a vopo rework stamp.

James

Ron Smith · 06-24-2012, 11:26 AM

James,

The East Germans and or Russians used whatever parts were available to mix and match to get a functioning pistol.

Also, many of the imported VoPos had the East German "Bull's Eye" plastic grips replaced by the buyers with original wood grips, after they purchased the gun. It's a good probability that this could be the case with yours.

The EG Bull's Eye plastic grips come up for sale on ebay and the gun auction sites quite often. There was a time that you could buy them for $10 or $15. Now they seem to be approaching the $50 mark.

If it were mine, I would buy a set just to keep with the pistol for authentication and originality purposes, before they get too expensive.

And yes, the Crown/U is an East German proof. They manufactured replacement parts on captured equipment. They are also known to have manufactured approx 100 complete Lugers. (see Mark's site) These are very desirable and obviously very rare.

BTW, Mark is very active on the Luger forum's sister forum, the P.38/ PP &PPK forum. He's a great guy and very knowledgable on VoPos. He could possibly give you more information on your Luger.

http://www.p38forum.com/

Ron

olearyjms2 · 06-24-2012, 11:38 AM

So would you say the crowned u makes mine a rarer find ron?

I will definatly invest in those grips

James

olearyjms2 · 06-24-2012, 11:44 AM

Just to note i also have the crowned n on the under of the barrel and the serial number has what looks to be an added "a" after the serial number on the left hand side of the frame

Jamez

Ron Smith · 06-24-2012, 12:04 PM

No, not rare at all. The Crown/U is found fairly commonly on EG Lugers. Usually on the left receiver near the serial number or below the serial number on the rail.

The Crown / N on the barrel is common also, indicating an EG replaced barrel. The EG C/N is of a slightly different style than the commercial DWM C/N, but similar.

One interesting thing about VoPos is that very rarely will two Lugers have the same East German markings in the same place, or even bare similar markings. It's as if they just stamped them haphazardly , if they stamped them at all.

The one outstanding feature on yours, is the unaltered/ uncancelled Police "Sun Burst" property mark on the frame. It probably went unnoticed due to it being behind the TD lever.

This in addition to the uncancelled Reichswehr unit mark on the grip strap make it unusual.

Back to the WWII Waffenamt on the grip. It's not likely that those grips were on it when in Russia or EG. The Russians hated the Nazis, and would go to great lengths to obliterate any Nazi markings on captured weapons.

I just noticed the Russian / Bulgarian? extractor in your photos. Another plus.

Ron

MarkC · 06-25-2012, 11:29 AM

Does the added "a" look like this?

http://p38guns.com/9747-a.htm

If so it may indicate the luger was a duplicate serial number and the "a" added to distinguish it from the other gun. Since these are all reworks I think the EG's kept inventory just using the original serial number without the letter suffix from the factory.

My 2c,

Mark

olearyjms2 · 06-25-2012, 03:59 PM

Thanks mark. Yes it does look like the one in the link.

James

olearyjms2 · 07-29-2012, 10:43 AM

Ive found a very faint crowned bnp mark on the toggle just behind the dwn banner. Just googled it and it means itsbeen proofed by the british. Is the a military mark or an import mark? And how would you think it ties into the history previously discussed?

James

Ron Smith · 07-29-2012, 01:17 PM

James,

It would indicate that the toggle link was replaced at some point after the recent import, using a British proofed part. I would doubt the East Germans had access to British proofed pistols or parts.

If the Luger had passed through the UK it would have numerous and obvious British proofs on the barrel, as required by British law.

Ron

olearyjms2 · 07-31-2012, 03:44 PM

Thanks Ron. Does make sence.

James

S/A86 · 02-06-2013, 11:55 AM

To be sure, the East Germans were the most doctrinaire of communists within Warsaw Pact. A theory I once heard from an Order of Battle type in our Army was that the purpose of the huge East German Army was to threaten Poland, Czecho and Hungary should they balk at any war with NATO forces.

Their rank and file units were the best trained, best equipped and best led, after SOF, in Warsaw Pact.

06-24-2012, 09:43 AM	#22
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	The police property mark on the frame is a plus. VoPos are rarely found with the property mark still in tact, if it was ever applied at all. It increases the collectability. Here's a link to Mark Castell's website. Check out his EG VoPo Lugers. http://www.p38guns.com/East%20German%20Guns.htm Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-24-2012, 11:26 AM	#24
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	James, The East Germans and or Russians used whatever parts were available to mix and match to get a functioning pistol. Also, many of the imported VoPos had the East German "Bull's Eye" plastic grips replaced by the buyers with original wood grips, after they purchased the gun. It's a good probability that this could be the case with yours. The EG Bull's Eye plastic grips come up for sale on ebay and the gun auction sites quite often. There was a time that you could buy them for $10 or $15. Now they seem to be approaching the $50 mark. If it were mine, I would buy a set just to keep with the pistol for authentication and originality purposes, before they get too expensive. And yes, the Crown/U is an East German proof. They manufactured replacement parts on captured equipment. They are also known to have manufactured approx 100 complete Lugers. (see Mark's site) These are very desirable and obviously very rare. BTW, Mark is very active on the Luger forum's sister forum, the P.38/ PP &PPK forum. He's a great guy and very knowledgable on VoPos. He could possibly give you more information on your Luger. http://www.p38forum.com/ Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-24-2012, 12:04 PM	#27
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	No, not rare at all. The Crown/U is found fairly commonly on EG Lugers. Usually on the left receiver near the serial number or below the serial number on the rail. The Crown / N on the barrel is common also, indicating an EG replaced barrel. The EG C/N is of a slightly different style than the commercial DWM C/N, but similar. One interesting thing about VoPos is that very rarely will two Lugers have the same East German markings in the same place, or even bare similar markings. It's as if they just stamped them haphazardly , if they stamped them at all. The one outstanding feature on yours, is the unaltered/ uncancelled Police "Sun Burst" property mark on the frame. It probably went unnoticed due to it being behind the TD lever. This in addition to the uncancelled Reichswehr unit mark on the grip strap make it unusual. Back to the WWII Waffenamt on the grip. It's not likely that those grips were on it when in Russia or EG. The Russians hated the Nazis, and would go to great lengths to obliterate any Nazi markings on captured weapons. I just noticed the Russian / Bulgarian? extractor in your photos. Another plus. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said... Last edited by Ron Smith; 06-24-2012 at 01:30 PM.

07-29-2012, 01:17 PM	#31
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	James, It would indicate that the toggle link was replaced at some point after the recent import, using a British proofed part. I would doubt the East Germans had access to British proofed pistols or parts. If the Luger had passed through the UK it would have numerous and obvious British proofs on the barrel, as required by British law. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-24-2012, 09:04 AM	#21
olearyjms2 User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Its all realy interesting. Just hard to source the info. So much history in one pistol.

06-24-2012, 10:46 AM	#23
olearyjms2 User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ron. I originally bought this luger because it was simply the 1st one that i came across in my quest to own a luger. Its realy cool to keep uncovering all these peices to the puzzle of its past. Thanks for the link. Just on the grips. It does seem that the current ones i have are original most of the vopo's ive seen have the bakerlite type. I may try to source a pair. I didnt know the vopo property stamp was a rare find. Ive aslo found a "u" with a symbol above it on the side of the toggle. Im told this is also a vopo rework stamp. James

06-24-2012, 11:38 AM	#25
olearyjms2 User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So would you say the crowned u makes mine a rarer find ron? I will definatly invest in those grips James

06-24-2012, 11:44 AM	#26
olearyjms2 User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just to note i also have the crowned n on the under of the barrel and the serial number has what looks to be an added "a" after the serial number on the left hand side of the frame Jamez

06-25-2012, 11:29 AM	#28
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	Does the added "a" look like this? http://p38guns.com/9747-a.htm If so it may indicate the luger was a duplicate serial number and the "a" added to distinguish it from the other gun. Since these are all reworks I think the EG's kept inventory just using the original serial number without the letter suffix from the factory. My 2c, Mark

06-25-2012, 03:59 PM	#29
olearyjms2 User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks mark. Yes it does look like the one in the link. James

07-29-2012, 10:43 AM	#30
olearyjms2 User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ive found a very faint crowned bnp mark on the toggle just behind the dwn banner. Just googled it and it means itsbeen proofed by the british. Is the a military mark or an import mark? And how would you think it ties into the history previously discussed? James

07-31-2012, 03:44 PM	#32
olearyjms2 User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ron. Does make sence. James

02-06-2013, 11:55 AM	#33
S/A86 User Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	To be sure, the East Germans were the most doctrinaire of communists within Warsaw Pact. A theory I once heard from an Order of Battle type in our Army was that the purpose of the huge East German Army was to threaten Poland, Czecho and Hungary should they balk at any war with NATO forces. Their rank and file units were the best trained, best equipped and best led, after SOF, in Warsaw Pact.