1921 Weimar Army Luger

[Edward Tinker]

I just realized that its serial number range falls around the 5 digit that started as a 4 digit.

The '8' was possibly added later, most of these were marked by the police with O.P.M. and the 8 was added to the serial number, I used to own 83591 and a section of our book will have these in them.

But most were police, and have a sear safety... and mine and others were of the 'a' suffix.

[whatthecrunchyo]

I'm a little confused. So is there something out of the ordinary about this pistol since it doesn't have a sear safety?

[Ron Smith]

Hi Jordan,

Your Luger is one of an approx. 10,000 Luger contract placed with DWM by the Army, Circa 1921. Some of these Lugers were taken from the run of Alphabet Commercial (aka 1920 Commercial) Lugers. All Army contract 1921 Lugers are in the No Suffix, A and B Suffix serial number ranges.

Dwm diverted and re-worked some of the Commercial Lugers in inventory. Re-barreled to 9MM, re-numbered in military style, and the date stamped on the chamber. The 8 was added to those already in inventory to avoid duplication of serial numbers as new pistols were produced.

Yours was most likely among the first completed commercials diverted to the contract. I have seen 3 or 4 other 1921 Army Lugers with the 8 added, I have owned 2 of them.

Sear Safeties are only found on Police Contract Lugers, not Army Lugers.

The 18th Infantry Regiment was part of the 6th Reichswehr Infantry Division. The Staff was billeted at Paderborn with the 13th Company. In 1941 the 18th Regiment was re-assigned as part of the 7th Driving Battalion, 1942-43 it was again re-asigned as 5th Company (EAST) 722nd Saftey Device Battalion, 1944 it was re-instated as the 18th Grenadier Regiment.

Ron

[A.Mifsin]

"Your Luger is one of an approx. 10,000 Luger contract placed with DWM by the Army, Circa 1921. Some of these Lugers were taken from the run of Alphabet Commercial (aka 1920 Commercial) Lugers. All Army contract 1921 Lugers are in the No Suffix, A and B Suffix serial number ranges. "

In the Weimar era, was not Simson the sole producer for the military ?
Alf.

[Ron Smith]

"In the Weimar era, was not Simson the sole producer for the military ?"

No, DWM filled a contract of approx. 10,000 new production Lugers for the Army and an additional approx. 40,000 for Police issue. Most of the Police Lugers are 1920, most Army Lugers are 1921 production. All are found in NS,A and B suffix. A few have been reported with M suffix.

All can be identified by 'Dove' AyA4, ArA4 or WaA4 or a combination of these proofs. If a Luger chamber marked "1920" is found with these proofs, it is a 1920 production. If it has Imperial or other proofs the "1920" is a Gov't property mark, not a production date.

Lugers can occasionally be found with a "1921" Gov't property mark, usually on "Double Dates". Which is thought to have been applied in error due to a mis-interpretation of the Gov't Property Marking order. I have also seen a "Double Date" marked 1922, again presumed to have been marked in error.

Ron

[whatthecrunchyo]

Is there anyway to determine how early out of the 10,000 that this one specifically came? Being that you've only seen 3 or 4 of these, does that make this a somewhat rare or unique pistol?

[Ron Smith]

Originally Posted by whatthecrunchyo

Is there anyway to determine how early out of the 10,000 that this one specifically came? Being that you've only seen 3 or 4 of these, does that make this a somewhat rare or unique pistol?

It does make it somewhat rare, but adds little value. 1921 production Army Lugers are scarce, in that they only produced about 10,000 while other years were produced in the Tens of thousands. I would guess that yours was actually made in 1919 or possibly 1920, but wasn't re-worked or issued until early 1921 for the Army contract.

The problem is that they only appeal to a small segment of collectors. So, they have only the value put on them by those interested collectors. They don't carry the War history of WWI, or the Nazi mystique of WWII. Although they are rich in history, if and when time is taken to do the research.

If more people realized or studied what took place in Weimar Germany. They would be more interested.

Unit marks add some value in most cases. I've owned 12 unit marked 1921 Reichswehr Lugers.

The era they represent, 1921-1933 Weimar , is much more interesting to me now, than either WWI or WWII. And I have been a War nut since I was very young.

Ron

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Ron Smith

If more people realized or studied what took place in Weimar Germany. They would be more interested.

Well said!

[whatthecrunchyo]

What did they do with these pistols have the Weimar converted to the 3rd Reich in '33? Shelve them or continue their use without remarking them? I really hate to ask all these questions but I don't have anything to reference...yet!

[Ron Smith]

Hi Don,

I think the Weimar era was one of the most interesting and exciting periods in German history. It kind of makes Capone, Dillinger , Bonnie and Clyde , and their ilk look like sissys.




Jordan,

No problem. They were used throughout WWII. In this case it very possibly remained in the 18th Infantry Regt. and progressed to the 18th Grenadier Regt. until captured or surrendered. As long as they functioned properly, they were used.

One fact is that Germany was still fighting with the Czechs, Polish and Russians after WWI had ended. They were fighting them in constant skirmishes along the Eastern Border of Germany. Your Luger , at some point could have seen action there also.

Ron

[A.Mifsin]

"" One fact is that Germany was still fighting with the Czechs, Polish and Russians after WWI had ended. They were fighting them in constant skirmishes along the Eastern Border of Germany. Your Luger , at some point could have seen action there also. ""

Hi Ron, any god reference, books to these events that I can get. Thanks.
Alf.

[Ron Smith]

Alf,

Most are out of print, but do show up on ebay, Amazon, IDSA Books, etc.

"The Reichswehr and the German Republic 1919-1926" Harold Gordon

"The Evolution Of Blitzkrieg Tactics[Germany Defends Itself Against Poland 1918-1933] " Robert Cline

" Hitler's Heralds [The Story of the Freikorps 1918-1923"] Nigel Jones

"The Collapse Of the Weimar Republic" David Abraham

Ron

[Edward Tinker]

In ref to the Simson only comment, the contract was signed in 1924, first new made in 1925.

Prior to this DWM made lugers for the military and police, in the open until the IMKK (does that look right? this was the commission set up to oversee that the versailles treaty was being enforced. Keep in mind that in my opinion that the commission, especially the French made up the rules as they went along).

Around the early 20's (1922 / 1923) they raised hell with DWM and the German gov't and started to make only contract and commercial lugers (i.e. 7.65mm) although it is known that guns were siphoned off to the military and police.

This does bring up something I just read the other night; in Sturgess' book he states that there is a directive that 3,000 lugers were purchased new for the army in 1925 and another 3,000 in 1926. At first I thought this was a breakthrough comment of how many lugers Simson really made (it is assumed that less than a 1,000 were made by 1926; however, it is unlikely to me that you would have dated 1925 and 1926 lugers that didn't go into the 6,000 range (there are no documented Simson's after sn 700, as I own 701 and it is not dated, plus I have a large database of hundreds of guns after that with no date). So, obviously these lugers were procured from Simson AND DWM in my opinion.

Just some additional history that I wanted to throw out there and like Don and Ron, the Weimar period is a fascinating history lesson.

Ed

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Around the early 20's (1922 / 1923) they raised hell with DWM and the German gov't and started to make only contract and commercial lugers (i.e. 7.65mm) although it is known that guns were siphoned off to the military and police.

While I have not been able to lay my hands on definitive documentation, considerable circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that the termination of DWM's production of 9-mm P08s for the police and military was a result of the IMKK's interpretation that pistols and revolvers with calibers greater than 8mm or barrels longer than 98mm (3-7/8") constituted "war material," the manufacture of which was restricted (not totally prohibited) by the Treaty. Rather than try to monitor several manufacturers of such war material, Simson was designated as the only approved manufacturer. This is why DWM began manufacturing only "commercial" Lugers in 7.65mm with 3-7/8" barrels until after the IMKK was disbanded in 1927.

The police were allowed to have handguns that fit the "war material" designation. Rather than purchase them from Simson during the period 1922-27, they apparently opted to buy commmercial DWMs and rebarrel them. Rebarreling was probably done by Simson until the PTV started doing it in 1927.

[Edward Tinker]

Don, your theory I believe is based on undocumented but real facts, and I have read enough information skirting the issue that I am in complete agreement with your theory (not that that is uncommon )

[Magic Jar]

Not to detract from the OP's original questions, I find that every time I come to this forum (I'm a newbie.) it's like going back to school. I'm really enjoying this education. Great info.

James R.

[whatthecrunchyo]

Sold this Luger this weekend for $1,475. Looking for early war P.38 for a good price!

[Dwight Gruber]

The serial number is in the proper range for a 1921-dated commercial P08. I'd really like to get my hands on this pistol to examine!

--Dwight

[Balder]

Originally Posted by Ron Smith

....If more people realized or studied what took place in Weimar Germany. They would be more interested. ......

Ron

Well said Ron. We discussed recommended Weimar reading in a different thread recently:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25990

Balder