First Luger - info & comments - New Photos added - Page 2

dascoyne · 10-23-2010, 03:06 PM

Thanks for the ongoing education.

I purchased it from a local dealer without knowing anything about Lugers or this gun in particular.

I'll take some more detailed photos when I get a chance.

DavidJayUden · 10-23-2010, 03:28 PM

Thanks for the lesson Norm!
dju

LUIS22 · 10-27-2010, 09:02 PM

All I know is that its a very impressive gun...usually refinish guns have smooth round edges these one in particular are straight???

alanint · 10-28-2010, 07:21 AM

It all depends on who did the work. I've seen refinished guns that would fool most experts.

Hugo Borchardt · 10-28-2010, 01:17 PM

Beautiful gun.
Welcome to the community and thanks for sharing photos.

Clark

drbuster · 10-29-2010, 08:58 PM

Lugers like this come up for scrutiny on the Forum from time to time and almost always get comments such as "original in my opinion" and "expert restoration". I think Ed's comment about shining the flashlight at the finish is a good one. Original finish really takes on a brownish powdery hue in the yellow flashlight (not the LED hi intensity ones!). Restorers often forget to put the yellow-white coloring in the Gesichert markings, but this one is there. Also, the often mentioned small pin on top of the rear toggle should indeed be in the white and is usually blued over by the restorer. I really can't be certain from the photos if this part is white or not. And lastly, one really has to hold the piece, run your fingers over the sharp edges and look at the stampings, etc. No matter what, it is a beautiful piece that may very well be a genuine un-messed with piece that probably rested in some officer's drawer, or possibly was never issued for whatever reason. Enjoy it, we should all be so lucky as to have such a fine Luger as our first one!

sheepherder · 10-29-2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster

Also, the often mentioned small pin on top of the rear toggle should indeed be in the white and is usually blued over by the restorer.

Uh, oh...That sounds like one of the 'experts secrets' that George said would not be discussed...

Ron Wood · 10-29-2010, 09:25 PM

Nah, that "expert secret" is no secret.

Ron Wood · 11-04-2010, 08:27 PM

The frames were not marked P.08 until 1941. The markings on the frame have nothing whatsoever to do with the SS. Do not shoot this gun...it is in fantastic condition and would command top dollar for this category of Luger. If you break a numbered part, you could reduce the value by half depending on what part broke. You were extremely lucky with your first Luger purchase and would be well advised to treat it conservatively. Congratulations.

guns3545 · 11-05-2010, 07:17 AM

FYI, the occasion that caused the P.08 to be marked P.08 was the adoption of the P.38 as the standard military sidearm.

Thus as early as 1940, some holsters were ink stamped P.08 to avoid confusion with the P.38 that was starting to be issued.

Ron is absolutely correct on the timing of the P.08 stamp on the frame. It is well documented in both Still's and the new Hallock/Van de Kant books. Think about it, the P.08 had been the standard sidearm for the German military since, as the name implies, 1908. There was no other of similar size and caliber. Thus no stamp was necessary. The introduction of the P.38 changed all that and the German military establishment wanted to avoid any confusion during the phase-in of the P.38.

John

Edward Tinker · 11-05-2010, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by valentine

... and in WW1 four companies made them. Being that orders and needs to fill contracts for battalions are huge, one company cannot take on the entire responsibility. DWM Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken was the original company that made Lugers. Than the gun was also made for the Germans by Erfurt. The royal arsenal at Erfurt. .....

Uh, I am sure that you just made a mistake, but there were two manufacturers of lugers in WW1, DWM and Erfurt.

Who else tooled up and made lugers? (Its in the FAQ)

DWM
Erfurt
Simson
Krieghoff
Mauser

and then the Swiss

All pre-WW2

There were no other manufacturers.

DWM made the widest amount and variations, having made military and commeriicial for many countries besides Germany.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-05-2010, 10:21 AM

Valentine... and in WW1 two companies made them.

There was only ONE Company that made them in WW1, the private Co. DWM.
The other manufacturer was not a Company but the German State Arsenal, Erfurt.

Jerry Burney

Edward Tinker · 11-05-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Valentine... and in WW1 two companies made them.

There was only ONE Company that made them in WW1, the private Co. DWM.
The other manufacturer was not a Company but the German State Arsenal, Erfurt.

Jerry Burney

yes, but they were under contract, but what you say is true and I agree with it

lugerholsterrepair · 11-05-2010, 10:43 AM

Ed, Under contract to who? There was undoubtable a licence agreement between the State arsenal and DWM but that would not put Erfurt under contract to them. Erfurt was an entity unto themselves with their own inspectors and disposition of Lugers to the German Army.
A manufacturer "under contract" would be supplying Lugers to DWM. German laws concerning this complicated subject are extensive but Erfurt was not "under contract" to DWM as I see it.

Jerry Burney

lugerholsterrepair · 11-05-2010, 11:24 AM

Valentine..You are confusing assistance given to Erfurt by DWM with a return obligation to DWM by Erfurt. There can be no doubt that DWM assisted Erfurt with tooling setup , design blueprints and technical help with the effort to set up a Luger manufacturing line. Once this took place however there was no evident obligation on Erfurts part to supply anything to DWM. Erfurt manufactured Lugers to supply the German Army.
A contract implies you have an obligation and I suspect the only obligation Erfurt had was to pay DWM a royalty on every Luger produced so I guess you COULD say they were "under contract" to pay but not to provide Lugers to DWM.

Erfurt did certainly have their own standards and they were not as high as the private Co, DWM.

Jerry Burney

Edward Tinker · 11-05-2010, 12:08 PM

I know that "SIMSON" received a 10 yr contract, (does not mean that a contract makes for a company, but for them, they are)

For erfurt, I quote, my own book, because i don't have Gortz and Bryans with me

Quote:

In 1904 the German Navy adopted the Luger (P08), and then in 1908 the big contract; the German Army adopted the Luger, hence the designation P08. DWM was given the contract, with the stipulation that a government arsenal could also produce the pistol; Erfurt was chosen as this government arsenal. After 1910, there was a requirement for DWM to stamp the date on the top receiver of the pistol. First production of Erfurt’s is 1911, with several 1910 dated Erfurt’s claimed.

So, they are not a company, but a gov't arsenal making them for the gov't while DWM still did both gov't and commericial. There were no commericial Erfurts made.

I disagree with the comment to the effect that Erfurt did as they pleased, because Erfurt made them EXACTLY to the gov't specifications while DWM waived many requirements.

ed

guns3545 · 11-05-2010, 12:24 PM

Jerry,

You are certainly on the right track here and your statements about contracts, etc. are certainly true.

I think everyone has to remember that DWM held the PATENTS for the design. Initially, they were the sole producers of the guns. In 1908, long after they had become a successful enterprise in their own right, the German Government granted them a contract to build X-number of guns.

As happened here in the USA when Colt received a contract to build the 1911 for the War Department, there was a rider that stipulated that Springfield Arsenal, (A USA entity similar in respect to Erfurt) would have the right to use the patented design to build 1911s after Colt had delivered so many guns. Thus Colt was rewarded for their R&D, etc, and the government would get as little piece of their own pie if they so chose to build 1911s for their own use.

While, I am not privy to the negotiations or contracts actually signed between DWM and the German Procurement Authorities in 1907/8, I am sure there was some such similar provision.

So Erfurt ended up with a production line, and as Springfield in the USA, and Waffenfabrik Bern in Switzerland, they evolved the design and produced their own brand of gun using their own tooling and procedures and standards.. If anyone doubts this, just look at the proofing of an Erfurt versus DWM.

Sorry for the long winded reply but the subject is very complicated.

John

marshombre · 11-05-2010, 07:25 PM

Absolutely no high edge wear = refinished. Why don't we ask Thor if he restored a 40 42 sn 6651 lately?

Edward Tinker · 11-05-2010, 07:35 PM

Besides Ted, I know of several guys back east that can make a luger look like new - 98%, no wear, no corner cut etc, there is always ways to tell, for one thing, seldom do you find a luger with such clean lines plus its markings crisp, etc.

It is possible, but there should still be patina and oxidation. Unless of course it is an older restore, but most of the early ones did not use proper rust or salt bluing.

Ed

dascoyne · 11-07-2010, 10:50 PM

Once upon a time I vowed that I would never own a gun I wasn't planning to shoot. I purchased this one with every intent to shoot it at least once.
Now, after this thread I'm too afraid of harming this gun if it is, indeed, a "survivor."

10-28-2010, 01:17 PM	#25
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 131 Times in 47 Posts	Beautiful gun. Welcome to the community and thanks for sharing photos. Clark __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm Last edited by Hugo Borchardt; 11-05-2010 at 03:16 PM.

10-29-2010, 09:25 PM	#28
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Nah, that "expert secret" is no secret. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-04-2010, 08:27 PM	#29
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The frames were not marked P.08 until 1941. The markings on the frame have nothing whatsoever to do with the SS. Do not shoot this gun...it is in fantastic condition and would command top dollar for this category of Luger. If you break a numbered part, you could reduce the value by half depending on what part broke. You were extremely lucky with your first Luger purchase and would be well advised to treat it conservatively. Congratulations. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-05-2010, 10:21 AM	#32
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Valentine... and in WW1 two companies made them. There was only ONE Company that made them in WW1, the private Co. DWM. The other manufacturer was not a Company but the German State Arsenal, Erfurt. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-05-2010, 10:43 AM	#34
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Ed, Under contract to who? There was undoubtable a licence agreement between the State arsenal and DWM but that would not put Erfurt under contract to them. Erfurt was an entity unto themselves with their own inspectors and disposition of Lugers to the German Army. A manufacturer "under contract" would be supplying Lugers to DWM. German laws concerning this complicated subject are extensive but Erfurt was not "under contract" to DWM as I see it. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-23-2010, 03:06 PM	#21
dascoyne User Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 5 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the ongoing education. I purchased it from a local dealer without knowing anything about Lugers or this gun in particular. I'll take some more detailed photos when I get a chance.

10-23-2010, 03:28 PM	#22
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Thanks for the lesson Norm! dju

10-27-2010, 09:02 PM	#23
LUIS22 User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	All I know is that its a very impressive gun...usually refinish guns have smooth round edges these one in particular are straight???

10-28-2010, 07:21 AM	#24
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	It all depends on who did the work. I've seen refinished guns that would fool most experts.

10-29-2010, 08:58 PM	#26
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Lugers like this come up for scrutiny on the Forum from time to time and almost always get comments such as "original in my opinion" and "expert restoration". I think Ed's comment about shining the flashlight at the finish is a good one. Original finish really takes on a brownish powdery hue in the yellow flashlight (not the LED hi intensity ones!). Restorers often forget to put the yellow-white coloring in the Gesichert markings, but this one is there. Also, the often mentioned small pin on top of the rear toggle should indeed be in the white and is usually blued over by the restorer. I really can't be certain from the photos if this part is white or not. And lastly, one really has to hold the piece, run your fingers over the sharp edges and look at the stampings, etc. No matter what, it is a beautiful piece that may very well be a genuine un-messed with piece that probably rested in some officer's drawer, or possibly was never issued for whatever reason. Enjoy it, we should all be so lucky as to have such a fine Luger as our first one!

11-05-2010, 07:17 AM	#30
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 435 Thanks: 649 Thanked 490 Times in 216 Posts	FYI, the occasion that caused the P.08 to be marked P.08 was the adoption of the P.38 as the standard military sidearm. Thus as early as 1940, some holsters were ink stamped P.08 to avoid confusion with the P.38 that was starting to be issued. Ron is absolutely correct on the timing of the P.08 stamp on the frame. It is well documented in both Still's and the new Hallock/Van de Kant books. Think about it, the P.08 had been the standard sidearm for the German military since, as the name implies, 1908. There was no other of similar size and caliber. Thus no stamp was necessary. The introduction of the P.38 changed all that and the German military establishment wanted to avoid any confusion during the phase-in of the P.38. John

11-05-2010, 11:24 AM	#35
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Valentine..You are confusing assistance given to Erfurt by DWM with a return obligation to DWM by Erfurt. There can be no doubt that DWM assisted Erfurt with tooling setup , design blueprints and technical help with the effort to set up a Luger manufacturing line. Once this took place however there was no evident obligation on Erfurts part to supply anything to DWM. Erfurt manufactured Lugers to supply the German Army. A contract implies you have an obligation and I suspect the only obligation Erfurt had was to pay DWM a royalty on every Luger produced so I guess you COULD say they were "under contract" to pay but not to provide Lugers to DWM. Erfurt did certainly have their own standards and they were not as high as the private Co, DWM. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-05-2010, 12:24 PM	#37
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 435 Thanks: 649 Thanked 490 Times in 216 Posts	Jerry, You are certainly on the right track here and your statements about contracts, etc. are certainly true. I think everyone has to remember that DWM held the PATENTS for the design. Initially, they were the sole producers of the guns. In 1908, long after they had become a successful enterprise in their own right, the German Government granted them a contract to build X-number of guns. As happened here in the USA when Colt received a contract to build the 1911 for the War Department, there was a rider that stipulated that Springfield Arsenal, (A USA entity similar in respect to Erfurt) would have the right to use the patented design to build 1911s after Colt had delivered so many guns. Thus Colt was rewarded for their R&D, etc, and the government would get as little piece of their own pie if they so chose to build 1911s for their own use. While, I am not privy to the negotiations or contracts actually signed between DWM and the German Procurement Authorities in 1907/8, I am sure there was some such similar provision. So Erfurt ended up with a production line, and as Springfield in the USA, and Waffenfabrik Bern in Switzerland, they evolved the design and produced their own brand of gun using their own tooling and procedures and standards.. If anyone doubts this, just look at the proofing of an Erfurt versus DWM. Sorry for the long winded reply but the subject is very complicated. John

11-05-2010, 07:25 PM	#38
marshombre User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: W Central FL Posts: 97 Thanks: 12 Thanked 20 Times in 11 Posts	Absolutely no high edge wear = refinished. Why don't we ask Thor if he restored a 40 42 sn 6651 lately?

11-05-2010, 07:35 PM	#39
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Besides Ted, I know of several guys back east that can make a luger look like new - 98%, no wear, no corner cut etc, there is always ways to tell, for one thing, seldom do you find a luger with such clean lines plus its markings crisp, etc. It is possible, but there should still be patina and oxidation. Unless of course it is an older restore, but most of the early ones did not use proper rust or salt bluing. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-07-2010, 10:50 PM	#40
dascoyne User Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 5 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Once upon a time I vowed that I would never own a gun I wasn't planning to shoot. I purchased this one with every intent to shoot it at least once. Now, after this thread I'm too afraid of harming this gun if it is, indeed, a "survivor."