Banner stamp error or irregularity - Page 2

Mauser720 · 08-20-2010, 01:49 PM

It may also be significant that Alx has stated: "looks like the toggle has a different color cast"

Notice that along the top edge of the logo there is a double pointed torpedo shape (I do not know what else to call it). Notice the distance from the left edge of the logo to the left tip of the torpedo. Now notice the distance from the right tip of the torpedo to the right edge of the logo. See how these two distances, which should match simply do not match? Unless this is a matter of photographic perspective, then these differing distances can not be accounted for by the use of a roll die. The distances in the factory roll die itself would have been perfect as shown in the example provided by Marc.

However, it would be interesting to look at the condition of these lines under higher magnification. Notice how jagged the top outline of the logo appears to be? This is exactly what one would expect if a Pantograph had been used to create this logo rather than a factory roll die.

Quite a mystery.

Alx · 08-20-2010, 11:39 PM

On this Luger, there are no acceptance stamps along the right side of the barrel extension where they are ususally found on military guns. The toggle does not seem to have been scrubbed, or it would have visibly lost metal height, which it hasn't.

Are we sure that the Mauser 'banner' were roll-stamped by Mauser ?

When I locate my 30x power hand microscope, ( a Radio Shack item ) I will look at the stamp to see if there are any pantographic-looking wiggles in the 'banner'.

Jack Lawman · 08-20-2010, 11:54 PM

I know it's apples and oranges, but this one made it out of the Colt factory in 1947 (2nd series, two digit serial #, first year series production). Haven't seen too many 4 speared Colts around:

Alx · 08-21-2010, 08:44 AM

Has anyone ever seen a mis-struck Mauser banner ?

Mauser720 · 08-21-2010, 12:17 PM

Any CNC ("computer numeric control") machine is not the same as a Pantograph which is mentioned above. A Pantograph is usually manually controlled. The operator manually traces the outline of whatever is being duplicated.

Ardennes · 08-21-2010, 09:53 PM

Please note also that the width of the bevel where it enters the rear toggle link is much wider on top (R) than it is on the bottom (L) as shown in the second photo. Highly suspect !!

Ron Wood · 08-21-2010, 11:23 PM

Geez guys, let it go. We can over analyze it till the cows come home, but it isn't a fake just a factory error that got through. If you don't think that is possible I'll bet I can come up with one that is even more blatant. It is what it is. If you don't believe me, here is a G date that I blanked out the serial number on because I don't have the owner's permission to release it. Tell me what is wrong with the gun and explain how it ever left the factory that way.

Jack Lawman · 08-22-2010, 12:11 AM

No scallop at the front of the receiver at the serial number flat. WOW! Is the right side missing the scallop also?

I think alanint hit the nail on the head:

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

I don't think any inspector anywhere looks at gun markings more minutely than this crowd! 8^)

sheepherder · 08-22-2010, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

...and explain how it ever left the factory that way.

It is a Mittagessenkasten Luger...

Gun Buddy · 08-22-2010, 12:18 AM

Interesting, and it appears there is hardly any wear there. I guess the fwd part of the frame and the sideplate keep the extra material from contacting the holster, thus preventing wear. How it got out is anybody's guess, but another thing to keep in mind is that inspection sometimes gets overruled by a higher authority.

Ron Wood · 08-22-2010, 01:15 AM

Yeah Jack, the scallop is missing on both sides...a slab side Mauser. Kind of makes a double stamp banner pale in comparison. Love your Colt by the way. Wish I still had mine.

Vlim · 08-22-2010, 07:59 AM

Ron nice example,

Now for the devil's advocate role:

Quote:

explain how it ever left the factory that way.

Can you prove that it did?

alanint · 08-22-2010, 09:05 AM

It was the Friday of the opening of Octoberfest!

Vlim · 08-22-2010, 09:31 AM

LugerVern · 08-22-2010, 10:01 AM

We see broken die Company Logo stamps often, the parts are not rejected by the inspectors. I think it had a very low priority in the big picture of things.

Vern

Railsplitter · 08-22-2010, 11:59 AM

Octoberfest !!! Love it !!!

nukem556 · 08-22-2010, 09:04 PM

is that a real road sign, and when's the next Schutzenfest there??? burrrrrrp.......

Alx · 08-23-2010, 10:18 PM

'Reminds me of the way Click and Clack digress into laughs when their Car Talk answers are inconclusive.
( I was on their radio show once, and had that treatment personally. ) It's great entertainment.

I am pretty much a detail person, myself, and had this Luger for about a month before I noticed that the banner logo looked a bit 'darker' or heavier on the right side of the banner/barrel. My eyes are not such sharp at close distances to see its exact details without a magnifying glass.

It is easy to see how it could be passed without notice, and maybe as Vern says, the inspectors may not have been as concerned with the logo stamp as they are with pressure tests and tolerances.

Ardennes · 08-23-2010, 11:20 PM

Thank you Mr. Wood.

08-20-2010, 01:49 PM	#1
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	It may also be significant that Alx has stated: "looks like the toggle has a different color cast" Notice that along the top edge of the logo there is a double pointed torpedo shape (I do not know what else to call it). Notice the distance from the left edge of the logo to the left tip of the torpedo. Now notice the distance from the right tip of the torpedo to the right edge of the logo. See how these two distances, which should match simply do not match? Unless this is a matter of photographic perspective, then these differing distances can not be accounted for by the use of a roll die. The distances in the factory roll die itself would have been perfect as shown in the example provided by Marc. However, it would be interesting to look at the condition of these lines under higher magnification. Notice how jagged the top outline of the logo appears to be? This is exactly what one would expect if a Pantograph had been used to create this logo rather than a factory roll die. Quite a mystery. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

08-20-2010, 11:39 PM	#2
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	On this Luger, there are no acceptance stamps along the right side of the barrel extension where they are ususally found on military guns. The toggle does not seem to have been scrubbed, or it would have visibly lost metal height, which it hasn't. Are we sure that the Mauser 'banner' were roll-stamped by Mauser ? When I locate my 30x power hand microscope, ( a Radio Shack item ) I will look at the stamp to see if there are any pantographic-looking wiggles in the 'banner'. Last edited by Alx; 08-21-2010 at 08:36 AM.

08-21-2010, 12:17 PM	#5
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Any CNC ("computer numeric control") machine is not the same as a Pantograph which is mentioned above. A Pantograph is usually manually controlled. The operator manually traces the outline of whatever is being duplicated. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

08-22-2010, 01:15 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	Yeah Jack, the scallop is missing on both sides...a slab side Mauser. Kind of makes a double stamp banner pale in comparison. Love your Colt by the way. Wish I still had mine. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-22-2010, 09:04 PM	#17
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	sweet! is that a real road sign, and when's the next Schutzenfest there??? burrrrrrp.......

08-21-2010, 08:44 AM	#4
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Has anyone ever seen a mis-struck Mauser banner ?

08-21-2010, 09:53 PM	#6
Ardennes User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Please note also that the width of the bevel where it enters the rear toggle link is much wider on top (R) than it is on the bottom (L) as shown in the second photo. Highly suspect !!

08-22-2010, 12:18 AM	#10
Gun Buddy User Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 7 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Interesting, and it appears there is hardly any wear there. I guess the fwd part of the frame and the sideplate keep the extra material from contacting the holster, thus preventing wear. How it got out is anybody's guess, but another thing to keep in mind is that inspection sometimes gets overruled by a higher authority.

08-22-2010, 09:05 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	It was the Friday of the opening of Octoberfest!

08-22-2010, 09:31 AM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,991 Times in 1,205 Posts

08-22-2010, 10:01 AM	#15
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	We see broken die Company Logo stamps often, the parts are not rejected by the inspectors. I think it had a very low priority in the big picture of things. Vern

08-22-2010, 11:59 AM	#16
Railsplitter User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	Octoberfest !!! Love it !!!

08-23-2010, 10:18 PM	#18
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	'Reminds me of the way Click and Clack digress into laughs when their Car Talk answers are inconclusive. ( I was on their radio show once, and had that treatment personally. ) It's great entertainment. I am pretty much a detail person, myself, and had this Luger for about a month before I noticed that the banner logo looked a bit 'darker' or heavier on the right side of the banner/barrel. My eyes are not such sharp at close distances to see its exact details without a magnifying glass. It is easy to see how it could be passed without notice, and maybe as Vern says, the inspectors may not have been as concerned with the logo stamp as they are with pressure tests and tolerances.

08-23-2010, 11:20 PM	#19
Ardennes User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you Mr. Wood.