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04-12-2021, 02:05 PM | #21 |
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Ok Ed..thats a nice reasonable comment... thank you sir. But I don't call people buttercup and nutty..those are personal attacks. Why are some people (and a moderator) allowed to make personal attacks on posters....I never made personal attributions or threats? But the moderator is allowed to get personal.....to my person in an attempt to tell me not to get out of line? Everyone sees his bias and intemperance.
And can you see how all his comments are uniformly adversarial.? He even wants to attack my Kerieghoof...without looking at it closely. I use logic..1), 2), 3)....to make my case....not comments against specific individuals. Never called anyone a nut case or buttercup...you think that was nice? Respectful? Cant be 2 standards...i hope. See I have no problem with doubts when presented with an effort of decency and respect....thank you so much...so kind. I just cant abide drive-by snied comments on a very important and very deep subject. The metal tells the story IMHO. Age leaves halows..and other signs...just having a faker stamp does not make it look old....and guys..they were totally separated for years...and 2 different guys found them...thats new data to the argument. Mike will tell you the story. Ron will confirm that all the actors in this drama are unknown to each other and honest....since he was always cc'ed on all back on forth between me and mike. I have no proof other than my photos. Thank you for your kind consideration. You know I just want the chance everyone else gets here..I am an advanced collector and know a few things...just like you do. Kenyon and Buxton were my personal friends..I learned everything from them back in the 1990s. Here is my display I did on Buxton this weekend at Tulsa: Last edited by whitehat; 04-14-2021 at 11:26 AM. |
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04-12-2021, 02:19 PM | #22 |
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OK, nice. Now how do we explain two boosted magazines?
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04-12-2021, 02:23 PM | #23 |
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Jerry look at the serial...commercial production...P1110..."P" means commercial....commercial mags had no proofs....everyone knows that.
Bob Simpson, Dave Rachwal, and Russ Withem looked it over and said it was the best they had ever seen. (no it was not their gun). I guess Bob knows something about Krieghoffs..50 years of seeing commercial Kriegs....he had 5 lesser versions of the same variation from consigners at his table...to compare....And a correct Krieghoff has a thumbprint..like this one...and 3 different tones of blue....that all goes away if reblued. I had serial number P1122 from Kenyon in 1994...one matched mag...exactly the same characteristics and condition..always regretted letting it go...was given crazy money for it in 1997....so I was glad to get one in same condition with 2 mags... Put it this way....I was offered twice what I paid for it by a top luger collector at the show... Russ Withem said he saw the gun in Las Vegas in over 20 years ago..and tried to get it from the same collector that died. Russ is Morphy's top luger consultant....and he knows his stuff up and down... Why only negative comments? There is a personal thing going on here...and I feel it. Can you see?....You prove my point. Put yourself in my shoes. You should go easy on me...I am one of the guys you talk about in your signature tag...that fought in combat for you for 21 years. Blow up 3 times. I just cant figure the hate. |
04-12-2021, 02:33 PM | #24 |
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OH! So it's a "commercial." OK, I stand corrected.
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Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know." |
04-12-2021, 03:12 PM | #25 |
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Here is the front....showing "p"...I thought the serial was enough..and the commercial proof that....
camera held phone..so not the best |
04-12-2021, 03:35 PM | #26 | |
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It is not correct to bring up my name to make a remark about my past comments/posts when I have not even made a post in this thread. People who know me for a long time, recognize me to be a pleasant honest guy. However, I can be harsh or rude at times (against collectors/experts who have attacked me or any item in my collection in the past for no reason without a close examination), but what I have gained over 35+ years in terms of knowledge and experience is quite significant and impressive bearing in mind that I have examined the most rarest German and Austrian pistols and carbines in my hands - except the M1910 .45 Luger - but one day I shall complete the whole mission. I have examined the 'best of the best' from a Mauser Zick-Zack prototype revolver (and carbine) to a Walther AP/MP with a stock. To be equal and fair about this subject M1900 AE Luger belonging to Mark who I have known for quite a while, I shall be glad to share my expert opinion about the two items. Happy collecting, Albert |
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04-12-2021, 07:06 PM | #27 |
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I wish nothing but good wishes to everyone here. Its a great hobby for free people. Where i live in Italy 6 months a year...you are free only to shut up and pay taxes.
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04-12-2021, 07:07 PM | #28 | |
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I suppose that the pistol was delivered to the Ideal Manufacturing Company as a sample and afterwards delivered to an US Board for evaluation or inspection which could explain the government markings and the corresponding serial numbers. Being the only pistol with such markings to survive, I do not think that it would have been part of the US Trial Luger shipments, but it does play an indirect role in the procurement by the US Government for a semi-automatic pistol and a holster that offered a dual purpose. Based on the features of both items - and both being original - I believe that my opinion is logical and reasonable, but it seems that Ideal stock was not accepted for purchase by the military because a separate pair of smooth grips had to be switched and attached to the pistol which was impractical. For both items to remain in the same region and rejoined after a century adds more knowledge to Lugers and their history. The mentality of most collectors and experts tends to revolve around value/money and often unfair judgements are made. I have been a victim of similar remarks on one of the rarest items in my personal collection, but there will always be a few bad people trying to trip up our hobby with their ignorance or their books which still spread wrong information. It can often be unfair, but there is a proverb from the Bible that says "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). Happy collecting and the quest for knowledge, Albert |
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04-12-2021, 07:11 PM | #29 |
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Then there's the question of how an Ordnance Shell and Flame not designed until 1936 somehow authenticates a pistol, grip or stock allegedly 30 years older??
https://goordnance.army.mil/history/shell_flame.html
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04-12-2021, 08:44 PM | #30 |
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M1903a3. I disagree. You said this stuff back in 2013 ..but many forms of stylized bombs existed since 1901. There was never only one type at any period. We do not know what proof stamps Springfield armory had on hand in 1904-09 period. Nobody knows.....you dont..I dont. We have all seen SA bombs in this period of all shapes and sizes. Nobody would be testing an ideal stock past the 1907 period.
Its a strawman argument....we dont know...thats the fact. Last edited by whitehat; 04-12-2021 at 09:36 PM. |
04-13-2021, 05:48 AM | #31 | |
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With reference to the link you provide above, the Ordnance Shell and Flame was used by European and US armies, including at the time when this M1900 AE Luger pistol was made in Germany and delivered to the USA. For example, a sentence on the web page says "Despite its sole ownership by the Ordnance Branch, multiple designs of the Shell and Flame existed", so it is not unreasonable to say that the design observed on the pistol and the iron of the Ideal stock is suspicious for that period. Furthermore, it is not a proof mark, so its 'lazy' horizontal position on the pistol is not critical, instead to make it larger and visible to an Evaluation Board since the marking (inside the Ideal grips) 'U.S. Government' is no where on the pistol. The old-style markings on the pistol and stock/holster did not have to match perfectly, and knowledgeable collectors should be able to think and recognize the purpose of these markings instead of negatively questioning the originality of the pistol and the discovered Ideal stock when both are consistent. Most often fakers screw up in this area without knowing the significance of old natural patina and the aging of leather and wood. It is a 'science' and I don't think these marks and number were applied 30+ years later on these two items which had been separated. However, thanks for the information that you provided which gave me some additional information/knowledge. Cheers, Albert |
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04-13-2021, 10:44 AM | #32 |
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5673 Luger
Its good to see some real feed back from Mauser. I am the finder of the Ideal Luger stock. I would like to say that for one, I did not clean the numbered area on the stock. I,m a collector and and not a hack when it comes to cleaning. Please notice that the stock was not even cleaned or oiled. I left it this way to show the true age of the piece as it was found. I,m happy to have reunited the two pieces. They truly belong together. Regards Mike Hashem Old Post Office Antiques Ossipee, NH
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04-14-2021, 11:59 AM | #33 | |
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04-14-2021, 02:25 PM | #34 | ||
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I have been collecting US Military firearms for over 50 years, and have spent a good many hours in the Harper's Ferry and Springfield museums as well as many days researching in the Ordnance Department records group in the National Archives. The first use of a Flaming Bomb on a firearm was on the M1903 Rifles manufactured in late 1905. It was retroactively applied to earlier '03s when they were converted to 30.06. Both Springfield and Rock Island stamped the mark on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. But it was a completely different design than the one discussed here. Both also started using a smaller version on bayonets. The use of these older styles continued through WWI and they also appeared on Eddystone, Remington and Winchester M1917 rifles. Springfield and contractors like Remington and Smith-Corona were still using older ones on the M1903a3 and '03a4 through WWII and the end of production. These Shell and Flames not only differed from the 1936 design, they also differed from each other. During WWII the official 1936 design started to appear on contractor manufactured items such as bayonets. The only firearm I have seen this exact style used on was a WWII vintage trench shotgun from Winchester. The only designs used by Springfield bear no resemblance to the one in question. Quote:
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04-14-2021, 02:36 PM | #35 | |
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Fact 2: The one used at that time doesn't look remotely like the 1936 design discussed here. This is not mere opinion on my part, it's very well documented. It's easy enough to see what the original one used by Springfield looks like. Museums have many examples, books are full of photos, and the barrels are conveniently dated. I have some in my own collection. Question: Can you provide another example of Springfield ever using this exact design?
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04-14-2021, 02:53 PM | #36 |
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I’m still curious to know how was a stock that was not produced until 1904 available for a test referenced in a letter dated 1899?
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