Need Info!!!!

[tdm9591]

Right side view

[tdm9591]

Bottom of Clip

[tdm9591]

Hello.
Yes I just noticed this as I was reassembling my gun after taking the last photos and was looking for the # on the locking bolt spring...this is the only number on it and so far the only part that is not numbered 65...what does this mean???... seams like a strange place to stamp a number as I don't see how you could stamp more than one digit!!!!

[Edward Tinker]

I would say it is a workers mark. You see them as numbers and letters. SN's are not put on these locations, so...

It is like this mark you have, but is a number;


I have seen anything that makes me think different than my first impression... except possibly the replacement barrel (see lack of witness mark on barrel)

[tdm9591]

Hello again,
As I said I,m not sure if this is of any importance but I thought that since I was taking pitures of everything else why not... the one mark seems different than others I saw

[tdm9591]

other side

[tdm9591]

Up farther on grip

[Dwight Gruber]

Tim,

It would have been good to see the receiver top and right receiver closeup as with the left receiver, but no matter--I think there is sufficient material here to assess what you have.

Your Luger appears to be a really excellent example of an Imperial Military Luger which has been "commercialized" by removing all of its military-associated marks, re-worked and refinished, and export stamped for the U.S. market.

Imperial Military DWM Lugers have distinctive inspection marks and proof marks on the right receiver, breechblock, and barrel, and a date on the receiver. The parts serial numbers are present on the exposed faces of the parts, as you have here. Lugers originally made for the commercial market have their small parts serial numbers stamped on their edges or underneath, in "hidden" locations.

Your Luger has been rebarrelled, as can be seen by the lack of a serial number, military proof (a heraldic eagle), bore measurement (e.g. 8,86), and witness mark. This rebarrel necessitated re-proofing by a civilian proof house before it could be re-sold, hence the crown-over-N commercial proofs.

The breechblock appears to have had its Imperial military proof removed--the horizontal filing line suggests this--and the c/N stamped in its place. The general look of the top of the receiver is not consistent with the original pattern of machining, suggesting that a date has been removed. I'm confident that a closeup of the right receiver would show evidence of the Military proofs being removed.

Additional evidence of a military origin is the a letter suffix stamped under the frame serial number. Although this gun masquerades as an Alphabet Commercial, the actual Alphabet Commercial series begins in the 2000i range.

Additional support for a military origin for this Luger is the sheer number of workers' marks on this gun. Commercial Lugers do not generally have nearly this variety. The 1 stamped on your takedown lever is truly a puzzle--a numeric worker's mark would have been contrary to regulations.

Judging by the existence of a stock lug accompanied by an unrelieved sear bar, this gun was made between 1913-1916. As I noted earlier it is a very nice example of its type--most military Lugers sold into the commercial market do not exhibit the craftsmanlike care in marking removal this one has.

Your magazine is a topic all its own. It has concentric rings characteristic of a Navy magazine, and it is stamped GERMANY as an export piece. This is an unusual combination, and would be of considerable value to a collector of commercial Navy Lugers.

--Dwight

[tdm9591]

Thanks Dwight,
You have supplied me with a wealth of information...you sure seem to know what you are talking about!!! ...at the same time you have raised alot of questions in my mind!!! First off I have taken a few more photos...I hope they are what you where looking for.

You mentioned that the Alphabet Commercial series begins in the 2000i range...could you explain what that means and how it relates to this gun.

Does the #1 stamped on the takedown lever detract from the guns value?

You also mentioned the magazine being an unusual combination and that this would be of value to a collector of commercial Navy Lugers...Did you mean just the Magazine or the entire gun???

Does the 3 3/4" barrel hold any significants???

So this pistol is in reletively good condition???

Lastly have you gathered enough info to give me a rough idea of the value range of this pistol???

I would like to say how much I appreciate you attention and the information you have provided...also your patience with a layperson such as myself...you have really enlightened me to how much there is to know in assessing a Luger...I had no idea...Thanks again!!!! I hope you will have time in the future to answer these few questions I have....I will patiently await your reply....Again thanks...Tim

[tdm9591]

Top view

[tdm9591]

Another view

[tdm9591]

I didn't know if you wanted to see the right side of the breechblock but here it is

[Dwight Gruber]

Tim,

Your additional pictures confirm that the date and right receiver marks have been removed. The machining marks on the top of the receiver are not found on unmodified guns, and the right receiver shows evidence of "sanding" on its surface. The angle of the line in the rounded receiver area above this sanding indicates that material has been removed.

From 1900 until 1921 DWM serialized commercial Parabellum pistols in a series beginning with 1, and extending to 92000. The part of this serial range from approximately sn 75000 (with some overlap) to sn 92000 have come to be called by collectors "20 DWM". At this point DWM, realizing that the coming extension of the serial range to six digits was going to be impractical to stamp, converted the serial numbering to the military style (four digits with letter suffix), which collectors have come to call "Alphabet Commercial."

In the arithmetic calculation of serial number progression with letter suffix, 2000i is the equivalent of 92000, and that is where the commercial serial range continues. The complete explanation is not complicated, but it is fairly long and somewhat of a digression. If you do a Forum search on "Alphabet Commercial", "serial numbering", and the like (coupled with my name), you will certainly find the long version.

Your gun, being letter suffix a, simply is not in this series.

Considering the rework nature of this gun, the number on the takedown lever does not detract from its value.

The magazine is a beast unto itself. Being a commercial magazine it is not inappropriate to this gun, but an unmarked, plain wood-base magazine would be more representitive of the type. It is the magazine which would be of interest to a Navy collector.

Your barrel length question is a perceptive one. By the regulations set forth under the Treaty of Versailles, German pistol makers were barred from manufacturing guns of "military caliber" (9mm), or with barrels of military length, i.e. 4 inches. The 3 3/4-inch barrel was the length chosen to comply (I presume your gun is in cal. .30 Luger).

From the photos, it appears that your Luger is in pretty good condition.

Check your private messages.

--Dwight