P04 help please: - Page 2

DonVoigt · 07-10-2017, 08:57 PM

Well, he did say it was not finished, and commented further on the grips later.

9x19 · 07-11-2017, 08:18 AM

Hello Sieger,

Thank you for your comment. I must admit that I had not thought about the grips much and I agree that the majority of them were more rounded than on my model. In a "tongue in cheek" defence of that I have a copy of official drawings showing both the curvier and flatter topped versions.

This "flat" version drawing is from Mauser Werke A.G., Obendorf, and has the number 1MD06-61 - that might be complete, or not, as the edge of my drawing is missing. It has a definite flat top with plain borders and the chequering does not start until some distance in from the edge.

There is also seen a version used on the Russian front that was flat topped, straight "grooved" and made out of Bakelite plastic - see attached image.

I might revisit the grips with a view to creating a "proper" rounded version with edge to edge chequering.

Thank you for your input.

Regards,

Dave

9x19 · 07-15-2017, 10:50 AM

Hi Guys,

I promised you a look at the finished "gun" - attached is a Keyshot rendering:

Regards,

Dave

Ron Wood · 07-15-2017, 01:25 PM

Looking good, but suggest a correction...the chamfer on the forward receiver needs to have the same radius as the rest of the receiver in that area, not a straight line.
Ron

Ron Wood · 07-15-2017, 02:29 PM

David,

If you get around to making a sectional view of your rendering of the Luger as you did for the pistol in your second post, I would very much appreciate a copy. It would go well with the example that was presented to me by David Kimble. His illustration was used on the front cover of the July 1989 issue of Guns and Ammo magazine to accompany his excellent article in that magazine on Old Model Lugers. David is one of the top illustrators in his field, and has produced outstanding sectional illustrations of exotic cars, steam engines and mechanical devices for such magazines as “Car and Driver” and other transportation publications. His illustrations are hand drawn using airbrush techniques that few artists can equal.

I apologize for the reflections in the framed illustration.

Ron

9x19 · 07-15-2017, 05:08 PM

Hi Ron,

I have corrected the gun thanks to your kind comments. I expect that I will create a cross- sectional view, although the model of the Colt was see-through not sectional, it means a bit of work to create multiple sections, but as/when I do I will let you know.

Regards,

Dave

Ron Wood · 07-15-2017, 05:43 PM

Dave,
A see-through rendering is what I meant by "sectional view"...a rose by any other name

Ron

Ron Wood · 07-15-2017, 06:16 PM

Almost there...a couple more suggestions if I may

DonVoigt · 07-15-2017, 06:49 PM

Perhaps these pictures will help; less the defect of course.

9x19 · 07-16-2017, 02:53 PM

Hi Ron,

Thank you for the pictures, but I am going to leave my model as it is.

My reasons for that decision are several:

1) The geometry involved.

2) Your example was clearly hand filed, not machined, and if you look at the at the side view and project forward the deepest point of the "groove" (which is very close to tangential to the side of the slide, as per my model) to the very front of slide I believe you would get exactly what I have modelled.

3) Depending on when the gun was made, and by whom, different methods of production were employed. In fact I have seen examples where the "grooves" do not match from side to side.

Interestingly enough I have drawings of a horizontal groove cut in the top front edge of the slide (forward of where you see 1920 on your gun) that does not appear to have any use. I have seen it on several guns, but it is absent from others. I am beginning to think that there are far too many variations of the P.08, especially as quality dropped later in the war.

Please see the attached image of an actual gun slide that is pretty much a match for my model. This particular gun is clearly made to a high standard as all the tooling marks have been polished out:

Regards,

Dave

Ron Wood · 07-16-2017, 05:47 PM

Dave
That was Don, not Ron, that posted the photo of the Luger marked 1920.

"In fact I have seen examples where the "grooves" do not match from side to side"...those "examples" didn't leave the factory that way, Lugers are symmetrical.

"Interestingly enough I have drawings of a horizontal groove cut in the top front edge of the slide (forward of where you see 1920 on your gun) that does not appear to have any use"...that groove was to accommodate the rear sight of a LP08 ("Artillery") Luger. Obviously the drawings you saw were of a LP08 that was rebarreled and no longer had that rear sight or was of an Erfurt Arsenal made Luger produced after 1914, all of which were made with that groove simply because the arsenal didn't bother to change the tooling.

The Luger in the image you posted is a very nice example, but as you can see the transition of the lower part of the chamfer is a bit more apparent than on your rendering, as I attempted to point out.

Your illustration is quite nice. I did not mean to sound critical, I just wanted to help make it a wee bit more authentic. If you are happy with it, that is all that matters.
Best regards,
Ron

Vlim · 07-17-2017, 08:21 AM

About the rear sight: These might help

These drawings were (re)done for the production of the commemorative Mauser Parabellum / Navy version.

ithacaartist · 07-17-2017, 01:30 PM

David,

The horizontal groove in the top front of the barrel extension is a relief cut to accommodate the rear sight leaf's lowest position on Artillery Lugers. You'll have seen it on pistols produced by Erfurt, which made the cut on all their pistols after a certain point finally assembled as non-Artilleries. You'll also find it on DWM pistols that were re-barreled with anything other than an Artillery barrel with the rear tangent sight, usually P-08s created to bring the pistols into compliance with Versailles Treaty regulations for barrel length.

Yet Another David

9x19 · 08-06-2017, 05:13 PM

Hi Guys,

To bring you up to date, I have almost completely re-made all of the models that were used in my Luger assembly.

I had been forced into downloading someone else's models from the internet to complete my assembly, I got these off one of the web sites that I have used before.

Unfortunately 99% of the stuff I used was incorrect. I only found this out when I bought a full set of "cleaned up" drawings from John Sobato (of this forum). To cut a long story short, it has taken me until now from my last post on this forum to remodel virtually everything.

I am going to make 3 different variants of this gun and render them in one image. I will let you see the finished article when it is done.

Now that I have at last got a "sound" standard model with a 4" barrel, I intend making a 6" version (not the Naval one as I cannot find any details of the adjustable rear sight anywhere) and an artillery version made from the barrel drawings that Rich B. very kindly sent me.

I have the barrel already modelled, but I am short of some parts e.g. drawings of the dovetailed sight base, the adjusting toggle, details of the elevation spring and assembly, etc.

Does anyone have these details on drawings in their collection. I would be most grateful for a copy, if you wouldn't mind.

Thank you to all for your help and support.

Regards,

Dave (9x19)

Footnote: John Sobato - Your cleaned up drawings have been my saviour. I cannot thank you enough! Anyone in need of readable drawings should contact John without hesitation. Best $25 I have spent!

Vlim - thank you for the drawings, I will add them to my collection for construction in my modeller, right after I finish the artillery Luger and butt stock. Ah, that is another subject I need help with, does anyone have drawings detailing the metalwork of the butt stock to gun frame connector mechanism?

ithacaartist · 08-06-2017, 10:20 PM

Dave, the grooves in the checkered patterns on the grips are buggin' me...sorry, another detail. But we all want to see your finished model perfect! You have some of John's plans, but I found an old thread with lots of pertinent info for ya: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...eckering+angle

9x19 · 08-07-2017, 09:04 AM

Hi,

Yes, I agree that the chequering is not correct (it also bugs the heck out of me too). However, It is only a bitmap with "bump" factor overlaid on the surface and is only a temporary representation. It will be replaced with something more realistic in due course.

All material finishes can be fine tuned when I have the three gun variants in one image. For now I am just concentrating on the mechanics.

Regards all,

Dave

9x19 · 08-08-2017, 09:54 AM

Hi Guys,

I have narrowed down the drawings I need - pages 33, 35, 38, 39, 40 & 41 of the manufacturing manual.

Here is a video I found that shows these pages, but does not given any details as to where they can be found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeOTQZVYxIA

Can anyone point me in the right direction please?

Regards all,

Dave

9x19 · 08-12-2017, 08:34 AM

Finally, the reason that I made my first post on this forum - I have finished the Naval version of the P08.

I have just the Artillery Luger rear sight and stock to complete and I will be a very happy chappy

I can then address the chequering on the grip

Regards all,

Dave

Norme · 08-12-2017, 09:41 AM

Hi Dave,
A couple (well actually three) small points:
1/ Imperial Navy Lugers were numbered in the Commercial style, the side-plate was numbered on it's lower edge, not it's face.
2/ The P08 mark on the left side of the frame is only found on P08 Lugers (you know, the kind with 4 inch barrels) dated 1941 or 1942.
3/ Since you have pictured a short frame gun it could only be the 1914 variation, so the chamber should be dated 1916 or 1917, not blank.
Otherwise it's a beautiful job, you could well be proud.
Regards, Norm

Norme · 08-12-2017, 09:50 AM

P.S. I've just noticed a fourth point, you have depicted a receiver with a notched front edge. This notch was intended to provide clearance for the Artillery rear sight, although it's also found on Erfurt P08's dated 1914-1918. It's a definite no-no on a Navy.
Sorry to be so critical but we Navy collectors can be somewhat anal!

07-10-2017, 08:57 PM	#21
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Well, he did say it was not finished, and commented further on the grips later. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-11-2017, 08:18 AM	#22
9x19 User Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: W.Yorkshire, UK Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 12 Posts	Hello Sieger, Thank you for your comment. I must admit that I had not thought about the grips much and I agree that the majority of them were more rounded than on my model. In a "tongue in cheek" defence of that I have a copy of official drawings showing both the curvier and flatter topped versions. This "flat" version drawing is from Mauser Werke A.G., Obendorf, and has the number 1MD06-61 - that might be complete, or not, as the edge of my drawing is missing. It has a definite flat top with plain borders and the chequering does not start until some distance in from the edge. There is also seen a version used on the Russian front that was flat topped, straight "grooved" and made out of Bakelite plastic - see attached image. I might revisit the grips with a view to creating a "proper" rounded version with edge to edge chequering. Thank you for your input. Regards, Dave Attached Thumbnails Last edited by 9x19; 07-11-2017 at 02:42 PM.

07-15-2017, 10:50 AM	#23
9x19 User Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: W.Yorkshire, UK Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 12 Posts	Hi Guys, I promised you a look at the finished "gun" - attached is a Keyshot rendering: Regards, Dave Attached Thumbnails

07-15-2017, 01:25 PM	#24
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Looking good, but suggest a correction...the chamfer on the forward receiver needs to have the same radius as the rest of the receiver in that area, not a straight line. Ron Attached Images __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-15-2017, 02:29 PM	#25
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	David, If you get around to making a sectional view of your rendering of the Luger as you did for the pistol in your second post, I would very much appreciate a copy. It would go well with the example that was presented to me by David Kimble. His illustration was used on the front cover of the July 1989 issue of Guns and Ammo magazine to accompany his excellent article in that magazine on Old Model Lugers. David is one of the top illustrators in his field, and has produced outstanding sectional illustrations of exotic cars, steam engines and mechanical devices for such magazines as “Car and Driver” and other transportation publications. His illustrations are hand drawn using airbrush techniques that few artists can equal. I apologize for the reflections in the framed illustration. Ron Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-15-2017, 05:08 PM	#26
9x19 User Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: W.Yorkshire, UK Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 12 Posts	Hi Ron, I have corrected the gun thanks to your kind comments. I expect that I will create a cross- sectional view, although the model of the Colt was see-through not sectional, it means a bit of work to create multiple sections, but as/when I do I will let you know. Regards, Dave Attached Thumbnails

07-15-2017, 05:43 PM	#27
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Dave, A see-through rendering is what I meant by "sectional view"...a rose by any other name Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-15-2017, 06:16 PM	#28
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Almost there...a couple more suggestions if I may Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-15-2017, 06:49 PM	#29
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Perhaps these pictures will help; less the defect of course. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-16-2017, 02:53 PM	#30
9x19 User Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: W.Yorkshire, UK Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 12 Posts	Hi Ron, Thank you for the pictures, but I am going to leave my model as it is. My reasons for that decision are several: 1) The geometry involved. 2) Your example was clearly hand filed, not machined, and if you look at the at the side view and project forward the deepest point of the "groove" (which is very close to tangential to the side of the slide, as per my model) to the very front of slide I believe you would get exactly what I have modelled. 3) Depending on when the gun was made, and by whom, different methods of production were employed. In fact I have seen examples where the "grooves" do not match from side to side. Interestingly enough I have drawings of a horizontal groove cut in the top front edge of the slide (forward of where you see 1920 on your gun) that does not appear to have any use. I have seen it on several guns, but it is absent from others. I am beginning to think that there are far too many variations of the P.08, especially as quality dropped later in the war. Please see the attached image of an actual gun slide that is pretty much a match for my model. This particular gun is clearly made to a high standard as all the tooling marks have been polished out: Regards, Dave Attached Thumbnails Last edited by 9x19; 07-16-2017 at 04:02 PM.

07-16-2017, 05:47 PM	#31
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Dave That was Don, not Ron, that posted the photo of the Luger marked 1920. "In fact I have seen examples where the "grooves" do not match from side to side"...those "examples" didn't leave the factory that way, Lugers are symmetrical. "Interestingly enough I have drawings of a horizontal groove cut in the top front edge of the slide (forward of where you see 1920 on your gun) that does not appear to have any use"...that groove was to accommodate the rear sight of a LP08 ("Artillery") Luger. Obviously the drawings you saw were of a LP08 that was rebarreled and no longer had that rear sight or was of an Erfurt Arsenal made Luger produced after 1914, all of which were made with that groove simply because the arsenal didn't bother to change the tooling. The Luger in the image you posted is a very nice example, but as you can see the transition of the lower part of the chamfer is a bit more apparent than on your rendering, as I attempted to point out. Your illustration is quite nice. I did not mean to sound critical, I just wanted to help make it a wee bit more authentic. If you are happy with it, that is all that matters. Best regards, Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-17-2017, 08:21 AM	#32
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	About the rear sight: These might help These drawings were (re)done for the production of the commemorative Mauser Parabellum / Navy version. Attached Thumbnails

07-17-2017, 01:30 PM	#33
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,346 Thanks: 7,277 Thanked 2,578 Times in 1,365 Posts	David, The horizontal groove in the top front of the barrel extension is a relief cut to accommodate the rear sight leaf's lowest position on Artillery Lugers. You'll have seen it on pistols produced by Erfurt, which made the cut on all their pistols after a certain point finally assembled as non-Artilleries. You'll also find it on DWM pistols that were re-barreled with anything other than an Artillery barrel with the rear tangent sight, usually P-08s created to bring the pistols into compliance with Versailles Treaty regulations for barrel length. Yet Another David __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-06-2017, 05:13 PM	#34
9x19 User Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: W.Yorkshire, UK Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 12 Posts	Hi Guys, To bring you up to date, I have almost completely re-made all of the models that were used in my Luger assembly. I had been forced into downloading someone else's models from the internet to complete my assembly, I got these off one of the web sites that I have used before. Unfortunately 99% of the stuff I used was incorrect. I only found this out when I bought a full set of "cleaned up" drawings from John Sobato (of this forum). To cut a long story short, it has taken me until now from my last post on this forum to remodel virtually everything. I am going to make 3 different variants of this gun and render them in one image. I will let you see the finished article when it is done. Now that I have at last got a "sound" standard model with a 4" barrel, I intend making a 6" version (not the Naval one as I cannot find any details of the adjustable rear sight anywhere) and an artillery version made from the barrel drawings that Rich B. very kindly sent me. I have the barrel already modelled, but I am short of some parts e.g. drawings of the dovetailed sight base, the adjusting toggle, details of the elevation spring and assembly, etc. Does anyone have these details on drawings in their collection. I would be most grateful for a copy, if you wouldn't mind. Thank you to all for your help and support. Regards, Dave (9x19) Footnote: John Sobato - Your cleaned up drawings have been my saviour. I cannot thank you enough! Anyone in need of readable drawings should contact John without hesitation. Best $25 I have spent! Vlim - thank you for the drawings, I will add them to my collection for construction in my modeller, right after I finish the artillery Luger and butt stock. Ah, that is another subject I need help with, does anyone have drawings detailing the metalwork of the butt stock to gun frame connector mechanism? Attached Thumbnails

08-06-2017, 10:20 PM	#35
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,346 Thanks: 7,277 Thanked 2,578 Times in 1,365 Posts	Dave, the grooves in the checkered patterns on the grips are buggin' me...sorry, another detail. But we all want to see your finished model perfect! You have some of John's plans, but I found an old thread with lots of pertinent info for ya: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...eckering+angle __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-07-2017, 09:04 AM	#36
9x19 User Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: W.Yorkshire, UK Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 12 Posts	Hi, Yes, I agree that the chequering is not correct (it also bugs the heck out of me too). However, It is only a bitmap with "bump" factor overlaid on the surface and is only a temporary representation. It will be replaced with something more realistic in due course. All material finishes can be fine tuned when I have the three gun variants in one image. For now I am just concentrating on the mechanics. Regards all, Dave

08-08-2017, 09:54 AM	#37
9x19 User Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: W.Yorkshire, UK Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 12 Posts	Hi Guys, I have narrowed down the drawings I need - pages 33, 35, 38, 39, 40 & 41 of the manufacturing manual. Here is a video I found that shows these pages, but does not given any details as to where they can be found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeOTQZVYxIA Can anyone point me in the right direction please? Regards all, Dave

08-12-2017, 08:34 AM	#38
9x19 User Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: W.Yorkshire, UK Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 12 Posts	Finally, the reason that I made my first post on this forum - I have finished the Naval version of the P08. I have just the Artillery Luger rear sight and stock to complete and I will be a very happy chappy I can then address the chequering on the grip Regards all, Dave Attached Thumbnails

08-12-2017, 09:41 AM	#39
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Dave, A couple (well actually three) small points: 1/ Imperial Navy Lugers were numbered in the Commercial style, the side-plate was numbered on it's lower edge, not it's face. 2/ The P08 mark on the left side of the frame is only found on P08 Lugers (you know, the kind with 4 inch barrels) dated 1941 or 1942. 3/ Since you have pictured a short frame gun it could only be the 1914 variation, so the chamber should be dated 1916 or 1917, not blank. Otherwise it's a beautiful job, you could well be proud. Regards, Norm

08-12-2017, 09:50 AM	#40
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	P.S. I've just noticed a fourth point, you have depicted a receiver with a notched front edge. This notch was intended to provide clearance for the Artillery rear sight, although it's also found on Erfurt P08's dated 1914-1918. It's a definite no-no on a Navy. Sorry to be so critical but we Navy collectors can be somewhat anal!