1902 Carbine

[Navy]

All,

I have come across 2 carbines in 9MM over the years and in my opinion, both were very well executed re-barrels of the nearly impossible to obtain 471A ammo. That ammo is still nearly impossible to obtain. I found a box FS last year and gladly paid $500 for it. Hardly the stuff to take to the range or hunting, unless, of course, I were hunting unicorns.

Tom A

[Ron Wood]

Mike,
My $1350 car was a Volkswagen! Yes, I knew a 9mm Carbine was unusual but I really didn't have a full appreciation of how scarce it was.

Tom,
The 1913 DWM cartridge catalog lists 471A as "Parabellum Karabiner Kal. 7,65mm (geschw�¤rzte H�¼lse)". Cartridge 480D is listed as "Parabellum Karabiner Kal. 9mm" with no mention of a blackened case, but it does have the note "Karabiner ist nicht in den Handel gebracht" or "Carbine is not brought into the trade" indicating that it was not a marketed item. I am guessing that a few were made but not for normal sales. If you found a full box of 471A in nice condition for only $500 you got a real bargain!

[John Sabato]

This thread has certainly been and interesting read, and quite educational on the early DWM history. My thanks to the owners for posting their prize pieces and to the historians and collectors for continuing to make this forum the best gun website on the internet.

[Imperial Arms]

I agree with Tom that a M1902 Luger Carbine in 9 mm Parabellum is likely re-barreled. If the DWM factory would have made the Luger Carbine in 9 mm Parabellum, I would expect a higher survival rate instead of 3-5 carbines reported to this day. How could customers know about the availability of a Luger Carbine in 9 mm if no dealer advertisements listed such a carbine? Special order from Hans Tauscher? - I don't think so. The Hans Tauscher brochures only offer the carbine in 7,65 mm Parabellum.

It is possible that a company such as Pacific Arms could have modified a Luger Carbine into 9 mm Parabellum, but I highly doubt that the DWM factory would have sold such a carbine. I never encountered in Europe a Luger Carbine in 9 mm, only one carbine in the US which did not convince me that it was factory genuine. Furthermore, if DWM would have made a carbine in 9 mm, I am nearly certain that they would have made an indication by means of a marking on the carbine. I know for a fact that the Mauser factory produced carbines in different calibers such as 7,63 mm, 9 mm Mauser Export (9x25), and the M1922 Test (Army) Carbine in 9 mm Parabellum. There is also one commercial Mauser carbine in 9 mm Parabellum which is absolutely genuine. We need to understand that Mauser and DWM had different marketing strategies where Mauser was more flexible in their marketing champaign, whereas when DWM started to mass produce a firearm, they did not change the gun's feature in a significant way.

I am not a technical genius, but I would imagine that some manufacturing adjustments would also be required for a Luger carbine to fire a 9 mm cartridge such as changing the old extractor to the new extractor and possibly the recoil spring. It is also possible that a '9 mm +P' cartridge would have also been required bearing in mind that the 9 mm bullet is heavier than compared to a 7,65 mm cartridge.

I am aware of four different types of DWM 480 cartridges (A-D), and only two were produced in quantity by DWM. One is the standard 480C cartridge (9 mm Parabellum) and the other cartridge was mainly for the Mauser M1912/14 pistol. If I am correct, the rim at the neck of the casing had a few very tiny slits which had something to do with maintaining pressure.

Based on the data I have extensively researched, I am still suspicious of a Luger Carbine in 9 mm Carbine.

Albert

[chuck watts]

As a point of information regarding 1902 Carbine ammo., I own two complete original boxes of 471A ammo. One box is marked: "Rundspitzengeschosse", the other is marked: "Teilmanteigeschosse". One box has the standard round noise bullet, the other a hollowpoint.

Chuck

[Ron Wood]

Chuck,
You are indeed fortunate!

______________________________________________________

The adult in me says let this thread go and do not prolong the discussion as it serves no real purpose.

The little kid inside wants to jump on what it perceives as flaws in Albert's excellent presentation above. I think I will go find my teddy bear and cuddle blanket and sleep on this one.

[cirelaw]

Its far more interesting than your daily newspaper!

[drbuster]

Ron, does this mean that you feel that 9mm 1902 type carbines actually left the factory as 9mm? Certainly, some of the "experts" (read large old time luger retailers), feel they are legitimate. I must defer to others since I have never examined one.

[Ron Wood]

Yes.

[Imperial Arms]

NEWS FLASH

Ouch - 'flaws'? My esteemed friend Ron seems to be disagree with me regarding Luger Carbines in caliber 9 mm. Well, to accommodate his views, maybe I can come up with another thought/possibility which could be reasonable.

As I have mentioned before, I have reservations about a M1902 Luger Carbine being MANUFACTURED in caliber 9 mm, however, there could be a small possibility that after WWI the DWM factory could have decided to use old inventory (including barrels re-bored to caliber 9 mm) with new breech blocks (having the new stronger extractors) in caliber 9 mm to ASSEMBLE some carbines in caliber 9 mm. As I have mentioned in previous discussions, German weapon factories never discard old inventory which they tried to put to use in order to sell more product. In view of the fact that DWM was very careful about physical forces/tolerances in their designs and manufacturing of weapons, I reckon that they would have not supplied a M1902 Luger Carbine with an old-type extractor for use with a 9 mm cartridge.

If we were to assume that a Luger carbine was manufactured in caliber 9 mm, should it have a leaf spring or the stronger coil spring? If we relate this same question to the changes that occurred from the M1904 to the M1906 Navy Luger, there was a reason for these improvements and I would assume that the same principles would be applied to a carbine in a large caliber instead of just 'throwing parts together'.

Therefore, to summarize, I continue to have reservations about the early M1902 Luger Carbines being PRODUCED in caliber 9 mm before 1910, but I 'may leave the door slightly open' for situations that could have occurred after WWI. It is also possible for a firm such as Pacific Arms to assemble a Luger Carbine in caliber 9 mm after the 1920's. If I had a choice between a Luger Carbine in caliber 7,65 mm and 9 mm, I would take the former.

Ron, you can stop 'sucking your thumb' and put the teddy bear away!!!

Cheers,
Albert

[Ron Wood]

Greetings Albert!

I am a bit pressed for time , so rather than address my reservations right now, I will ask you to think about it a bit more. And to stimulate that process I will ask...what caliber is your Cartridge Counter and what kind of a breechblock, extractor and mainspring does it have?

Cheers!

[Dwight Gruber]

I wonder if Anna, who has been silent through the latter part of this discussion, could be prevailed upon to remove one of the grips from her 1909-production carbine and report whether it has a leaf-type or coil-type recoil spring?

--Dwight

[StarOfTheWest]

Sure, Dwight.
It has a leaf style recoil spring.
But my gun is a 7.65, not a 9.

[alvin]

Albert -- You mentioned the 9m/m Carbine should use +P ammo. I guess there must be a reason. Could you tell us why?

[Ron Wood]

I will be interested to hear that answer too, as it is another little tidbit that I find to be of questionable merit...I am not sure such an increase in power was necessary (but there is also a distinct possibility that DWM did develop a +P 9mm cartridge, 480D, just as they developed a +P 7.65mm in the form of the 471A cartridge).

[Dwight Gruber]

Anna,

Thanks for the recoil spring check. I knew your gun was 7.65, the information which is pertinent is that in 1909, long after the flat spring was obsolete, DWM produced a series of 1902 carbines with flat-spring frames. Model 1900 frames are significantly different from new-model frames in the area of the recoil spring, so they would have either have to have had some 1900 frames in stock or made some up specifically for this run.

This may have some bearing on Albert's speculation about post-war carbine models.

--Dwight

[Navy]

Alvin and Esteamed Mr Wood,

Re: +P ammo for a carbine in 9MM; consider the obvious. It simply takes more Uumph, to use a technical term, for a carbine action to cycle. This is intuitively the reason the 471A was developed. A +P in 9MM would approximate the additional Uumph required for cycling the action should a carbine be chambered in 9MM Parabellum. Me thinks this is one of those blinding flashes of the bleedin' obvious.

And to amplify Albert's astute comments on parts, recall that the 1920 series of carbines are mostly an assemblage of new, old stock parts cobbled together for retail sale. My 1920 carbine has several components that were obviously intended for military application when ORIGINALLY manufactured. It, BTW, is chambered in 7.65.

Tom A

[Pete Ebbink]

1920's carbine in 9 mm...

Tinker should like this one...what will all the Simson birdies on it...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=90162851

[Imperial Arms]

Ron, you make a good point regarding a Cartridge Counter being in caliber 9mm and using the old style parts. However, there is a difference between a pistol and a carbine. With reference to Tom's comments, the technical question that I cannot answer is whether a standard 9 mm cartridge would be able to cycle the entire action of a Luger Carbine or whether a 9mm +P cartridge would be required in the same manner as a 471A cartridge. I would assume that everything is proportional, so I suppose that a '9 mm Carbine' would require a +P cartridge, which by the way, was not mass produced. For example, if we were able to discover that 9 mm Carbine would require a +P cartridge, where would a hunter in the early to mid 1900's be able to buy such a box of ammunition? Using data which I had obtained from one of my catalogs listing 471A ammunition, I believe that the a 471A cartridge has between 9%-12% more power than a 471 pistol cartridge, if I remember correctly.

This is a very interesting topic, but I prefer solid facts instead of mystery - therefore, I believe that the M1902 Luger Carbine was manufactured by DWM only in caliber 7,65 mm (471A).

Cheers,
Albert

[alvin]

I thought about this +P ammo business this afternoon.

In locked mode, the barrel assembly (receiver + barrel) and bolt assembly (breech block + toggle links) move at the same speed. We can imagine the total recoil energy is divided into two parts:

Total Recoil Energy: R = E + e
Kinetic Energy of Barrel Assembly: E = 1/2 Mv(2)
Kinetic Energy of Bolt Assembly: e = 1/2 mv(2)

So, the recoil energy allocation depends on the relative weight of two assemblies:

E = R x M/(M+m)
e = R x m/(M +m)

With same ammo, total recoil energy R is fixed. Energy allocated to bolt assembly cannot be too small, otherwise, the gun action may not work properly. The barrel assembly of Carbine is much bigger than that of of a regular pistol, so, much less energy is allocated to bolt assembly.

Solution 1: Increase the weight of bolt assembly.... The bolt of Luger Cabine does not look bigger and increases the weight is not a good choice anyway.

Solution 2: Decrease the weight of barrel.... not feasible, the barrel wall can only be that thin.... otherwise, safety become a concern.

Solution 3: Use hot ammo. Probably this is the reason for +P ammo.

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If above analysis is correct, +P ammo on Carbine makes lots of sense, and it's possible to turn the hard question "DWM 1902 9m/m Carbine" into a simpler question (simpler?) ..... "When did +P 9m/m ammo appear?"..... looks like this type of ammo has long/heavy barrel assembly in mind.