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09-30-2011, 07:41 PM | #21 |
Always A
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Obviously, it is difficult for some collectors to rationalize without fully understanding the culture and traditions of Imperial Germany. Without being racist, Americans will continue to think like Americans and often go along with 'knee-jerk' reactions. The American mentality in regards to the firearms industry is quite different from the German way in the past and the present.
Albert Hi Albert, I do understand "the culture and traditions of Imperial Germany". Both my parents grew up in Germany and my three older siblings were born in Berlin. The family spoke German at home and my Mother remained a typical German Hausfrau to the end. However, business is business, and DWM, a privately owned company, was in business to make money. It is not impossible to imagine that if DWM was stuck with a few hundred Bulgarian frames from a production overrun or cancelled contract, that they would seek to recoup their investment by dumping them on the Russian commercial market. Albert, I've enjoyed our debate, as I'm sure Ron and Ed have, but I urge you to keep it at a scholarly, impersonal level. We will likely never know the truth about these fascinating guns, but along the way, I have learned a lot from you and the others. All the best, Norm |
09-30-2011, 10:37 PM | #22 |
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OK folks, I am enjoying this running discussion on one of my favorite variations. I am digesting once again what has been posted on this forum as well as outside readings. Albert has mentioned a couple of key considerations that had not registered with me before and perhaps are the crux of our disagreement. Please bear with me as I attempt to write my "opus magnum (minimum?)" on this delicious topic. It may take me a couple of days as my thought processes are not as rapid as someone several years my junior, but hopefully they are more deliberate. I will return to this thread when I can compose what I hope will be a meaningful response. "Watch this space for future developments" !
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10-01-2011, 05:13 AM | #23 |
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Thank you Ron for correcting Edward by informing him that I am a German national (born in Munich, Bavaria). I also have some French blood in my veins from my ancestor who was a General in the Napolean army who stopped over in Malta in June 1798 during Napolean's campaign to Egypt. General Count Augustin Daniel Belliard was the Governor of Egypt during the period.
Unfortunately, my German language is rather rusty due to the fact German was not spoken in my family when I was a young kid growing up in Africa. I used to speak French fluently, but most of it has been lost over the years, except that when I go to visit collectors in France where I am able to practice some of the language. Cheers, Albert |
10-01-2011, 05:56 AM | #24 | |
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10-01-2011, 06:14 AM | #25 | ||
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10-01-2011, 07:11 AM | #26 |
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The mistake of identifying the Luger pistol with crossed rifles on the chamber as a Russian Contract Luger. Furthermore, Mr. Kenyon had overlooked the fact that crossed rifles normally refer to an Infantry regiment. If he had recognized this detail when he wrote the book, I suppose that he would have gotten it right as a another Bulgarian contract pistol, especially when these pistols have Bulgarian markings - there is nothing Russian on it! Unfortunately, what we learn today cannot be applied 50 years ago and critics will be critics.
The wrong information which was originally written in the book 'Lugers at Random' about the M1906 Russian Luger that was repeated by other authors in future Luger books. |
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10-01-2011, 08:44 AM | #27 |
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It would be great to have some contacts in Bulgaria going through the archives there.
About the cartel agreement: One of the first lessons of historical research is to find out whether a particular item that exists today had the possibility to exist in the time frame it was claimed to come from. With the Bulgarian/Russian luger, the same practice exists. If the cartel agreement between Steyr-Mannlicher and Loewe existed for pistols, then it would be very, very unlikely that any Parabellum pistol was sold to Steyr-Mannlicher controlled areas (like Bulgaria). So we have established that: -Mannlicher had the exclusive right to sell military rifles to Bulgaria and Rumania. -Loewe group had the exclusive right to sell rifles to Serbia and Greece. -The market for sporting/hunting rifles, pistols and revolvers was open for all players Which means that -There was a market for the Parabellum in Bulgaria at the time. -Loewe/DWM was free to sell Parabellum pistols to any military organization in that country. |
10-01-2011, 09:20 AM | #28 | |
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If you claim that DWM made lots of mistakes or omissions with regards to foreign contracts, please describe a few others to me. It is possible that commercial sales had a few small exceptions, but not to the extreme of placing (infantry) crossed rifles on a chamber for the Russian civilian market. This would be a marketing ploy without any sense and a waste of money for DWM during production. You make the Germans look like fools when they were more precise than the Americans - and still are! I have no knowledge of DWM or Mauser selling rejects or surplus pistols during the imperial era. It may have happened with the sale of military rifles which were sold in much large quantities, but we could be talking apples and oranges on this different subject. Excuse me for often writing in excess, but sometimes I have no choice when I try to explain a simple logical theory which is different from the American way of thinking and method of manufacturing. It seems that the Americans are bent on a certain square mentality which other foreigners see as awkward/bizarre. Of course, the Americans are excellent in technology and logistics (in the past and present), but there is still plenty of room for improvement although it often costs more money. Albert |
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10-01-2011, 09:43 AM | #29 |
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10-01-2011, 01:07 PM | #30 | |
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Hereunder are some points to consider:
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10-01-2011, 02:40 PM | #31 |
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Dear Albert, If may address a couple of your points. Firstly, you keep referring to the "Russian Government/Military" ordering these Lugers from DWM. No one I know of has made this claim, yet you keep repeating this assertion over and over again. This is a classic "straw man" debating tactic in which one distorts an opponents position so that it can be refuted. It is unworthy of you. We have always maintained that these pistol were assembled by DWM for the Russian civilian market.
Secondly, it is entirely possible that no one at DWM, at that time, was familiar with either Bulgarian or Russian. Remember, this was some years before the mass Western migration of Eastern Europeans triggered by the war and the Russian revolution. Best regards, Norm |
10-01-2011, 03:47 PM | #32 | |
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If the (fake) M1900 Russian was ordered and tested by the Russian military in 1904 and the 'M1906 Russian' happens to have similar contract features/characteristics (like the M1906 Portuguese Lugers), then it is safe to say that it was a contract order and not for the civilian market. When Charles Kenyon wrote in 'Lugers at Random' that these Lugers were for a contract to Russia, who is now coming up with the ideas that it was for commercial sales instead and for what reason? Were the M1906 Portuguese Lugers for the civilian market? I am not distorting an opponents position - simply look at the pistol and its characteristics speak for themselves. Sweet dreams, Albert |
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10-01-2011, 05:51 PM | #33 | |
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10-01-2011, 07:55 PM | #34 | |
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http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ese+navy+luger |
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10-02-2011, 04:40 AM | #35 | |
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10-02-2011, 05:44 AM | #36 | |
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<Moderated> Of course, I have made a few mistakes in the past while researching various subjects (i.e. with Mauser C96 pistols), however, when I gain new valid information, I always try to incorporate it very carefully in line with other correct and logical facts. This is exactly what I am doing on this particular subject where the information that I am presenting is in line with historical facts, events and German heritage. Nobody can say that the 'Bulgarian theory' in wrong even though the critics continue to use the 'escape door' of 'conjecture'; however, I can state with a very high degree of confidence that the 'Russian Contract Luger' was NEVER delivered to Russia. Albert Last edited by Vlim; 10-02-2011 at 11:41 AM. |
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10-02-2011, 08:56 AM | #37 | |
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Thanks for the link! It led to several other links, including posts by Pete Ebbinck and drbuster, both of whom I respect. Plus a PDF document on faked Lugers which was quite interesting, if somewhat suspect as to accuracy. I've found Still's forum to be so large and segmented that it is a daunting task [for me] to try to keep current with the various and varied threads...A classic case (again, for me) of 'too much information'...
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10-02-2011, 06:08 PM | #38 |
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<Moderated> = censorship
Oops, I just remembered that I cannot give any advise or suggestions to the forum 'masters'. Probably, it will be taken as being 'rude' and against their way of thinking. Albert |
10-02-2011, 09:20 PM | #39 | |
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10-02-2011, 09:44 PM | #40 |
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Thank you Albert, I almost feel vindicated............
Harry |
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