K date Kriegsmarine - Page 2

Gene · 01-18-2005, 02:52 PM

In Third Reich Lugers, Jan Still has reported a K-date Kriegsmarine, s.n. 2113 with property no. O.1750 -- the same property no., but different serial.

jamese · 01-18-2005, 06:13 PM

Heinz,

Naples and Jacksonvillle are on opposite sides of the state My guess it would be a 5 to 6 hour drive between the two.

But I guess in some parts of the county thats close

Jim

MauserLugers · 01-18-2005, 09:08 PM

LDU,
Thanks for posting the pictures.

You're very lucky you have to repay the wife back, otherwise when your wife found out you bought this totally bogus piece of junk she'd be kicking your ass big time. In my opinion this is a total fake with nothing being correct on it. You better go look at some pictures and compare features before you jump into this area. Nothing is correct on this piece from the barrel to the E/M to the scriptic S markings to the magazines. Whoever is selling this as an original should be held accountable for fraud! -- Bill

Lugers down under · 01-18-2005, 10:15 PM

Bill,
The guy who is selling this gun apparently bought it a few years ago in good faith. I believe he is selling it in good faith. I doubt if he is aware of it's authenticity, if any. The photos were supplied to me by a relative who had a good digital camera.
It is interesting to read some of the feed back.
I suppose at the end of the day it should "caveat emptor"

I am certainly not going to jump into this area. One of the prime reasons alone is the cost. For me to purchase it would cost me NZ$21,000.00 and no one in this country would pay that for it or any other Luger much other than a 1900 carbine maybe.

( I would be required to pay G.S.T {12.5% Goods and Srvices Tax,} on the gun when I imported it, were as the same item already in New Zealand is classed as "second hand goods" and thus attracts no tax,)

The second reason is that I cannot determine it's authenticity from "down under" here"

I have thus offered it up to all on the forum "where is, as is" warts and all!

Regards
Murray

Ron Wood · 01-18-2005, 10:28 PM

Murray,
I am glad Bill stepped in on this piece. It is way out of my area of knowledge, but even to my untrained eye it looks really bad. As Bill said, be thankful that the Borchardt (nice purchase by the way!) precluded your acquisition of this dubious example.

lugercollector · 01-18-2005, 11:12 PM

I agree...the gun has been restrawed....buffed...and the Marine markings look strange!!!....I handled a real Marine K date 3 weeks ago.....(unfortunately,the owner did not want to part with it)......if ever obtained ....will post photos....

lugerholsterrepair · 01-19-2005, 12:55 AM

Interesting...I guess I better let the big dogs roam and stay on the porch. I still have a lot to learn. Jerry Burney

Navy · 01-19-2005, 07:38 AM

All,

Once again it is clear: this is about betting that you know as much or more than the other guy.
Clearly, someone made that bet and lost.

Tom A.

George Anderson · 01-19-2005, 09:10 AM

Murray, now I remember where I have seen you..."McHales Navy".

Ron Smith · 01-19-2005, 09:27 AM

Geo, I was thinking "Yosemite Sam".

Nice Choppers!!!
Ron

MauserLugers · 01-19-2005, 12:08 PM

LDU,
Please share with us the name of the gentleman who is selling this rig. Thanks -- Bill

Lugers down under · 01-19-2005, 02:41 PM

Bill,
The seller is a Mr John Frooth.
E-mail address is avaliable by private request to me.
Regards\
Murray
LDU

Lugers down under · 01-19-2005, 03:23 PM

Out of interest,
While we are seeing some interesting comments concerning the doubtful authenticity of the K date KM, I have recieved an equal number of e-mails with contrary favourable opinions, some from persons who should know.

For those of you who have commented such as ..."McHales Navy".
"Yosemite Sam". and" Nice Choppers!!! . Well, you are all just jealous that I am sitting in the sun, and you are all shovelling snow!

Kindest wishes
LDU

MauserLugers · 01-19-2005, 04:13 PM

Hi,
This thread is the perfect learning example. In my opinion the above mentioned KM K-Date Luger is totally fabricated to resemble an original example. I've been waiting for some of the regulars to jump in here and explain what is wroing with this piece, but so far no one has. I guess that is because they are scared to voice their opinions due to being legally held responsible. Again, in my opinion, it is obvious that the characteristics of this piece are not correct and from the pictures you can compare this piece to a real piece in Jan Stills books and see the differences. So, in my opinioin, anyone who is saying this KM Luger is correct either doesn't know what they are talking about, or is in on the scam. Further, what's with all the private messages anyway? If you have something to say, say it to all of us so we can possibly learn something. Next, it is interesting that not a single person has even asked what is wrong with this piece. If your not interested enough to even want to know what a fake looks like, then spend the bucks and get this piece or some similar to it. I'm sure the guy who made this piece has more. -- This is actually somewhat funny but also sad that anyone who collects Lugers could think that this piece is correct! A new variation perhaps? --- Good luck --Bill

Lugers down under · 01-19-2005, 04:41 PM

Bill,
"without prejudice"
I am completely neutral on the gun.
The facts are that the owners brother inlaw asked me to identify the gun, as he knew nothing about Lugers at all, and sought my advice.
He and his family and my wife and I were attending the 13th Annual Thompson Sub-machine gun show and shoot being held in August just past at the NRA head quaters at Fairfax Va. Now ask me about 1921Thompsons and I will tell you all, but this K Date surpasses my meager Luger knowledge.

It was offered to me for sale.I declined. In the spirit of our Luger forum I have offered it to the forum members.
There is no "private message" conspiracy. It is a simple fact that no one wants their private e-mail address advertised and thus I suggested that if any one is interested, contact me a I WILL GIVE YOU THE DETAILS.

Now! for the big one, out of interest. Can any one tell us all exactly what is wrong with the gun........... please?

Regards
LDU

Frank H · 01-19-2005, 04:52 PM

No one has noticed your beautiful shirt! Not everyone can wear that stuff! Looks GREAT!

MauserLugers · 01-19-2005, 04:52 PM

LDU,
You did good. You didn't get stuck with this piece and you shared pictures and information. That's great -- Thank you -- Bill

Frank · 01-19-2005, 04:53 PM

OK Bill, Here is my read! The serial number indicates it's a 2nd Variation per JCS. Therefore there should be mixed script and gothic S's. I only see script! The WaA should be O-37, not B-90, S-91! The barrel band radius should be sharp, not well radiused. The magazines are all messed up and obviously a restamped fake (WaA should be O-37, not B-90, there shouldn't be the eagle stamp on the magazine bottom and the "S" should be Gothic). There is probably more, but I haven't seen that many (any) K-Date KM's so I can't comment on the Eagle/M Markings!

Bill, let's here the rest!!

John Sabato · 01-19-2005, 05:07 PM

Funny that no one had previously noticed or mentioned that the "S" stamps, and the number fonts on the two "matching" magazines don't even resemble each other... One "S" is smaller than the other and one number font has different serif's than the other...

MauserLugers · 01-19-2005, 05:17 PM

Frank,
You did good buddy. Now what about the sideplate and the K on the chamber and the E/M?

I've seen a couple of these over the last 5 years and all looked about the same. A guy sent me two K-dates to look at and both were fabricated like this piece. Another guy sent me a picture of a KM Luger and it was like this also but without the E/M on the left panel. He got mad at me when I told him it was a fake and was going to have the guy he bought it from sue me and that it was a "new variation". The same guy who sent me the two to examine said he had a 3rd piece he'd gotten from the same guy that was a 2 matching Navy K-Date. Good job and thanks for the reply. Some of the new collectors can learn a lot from this piece. -- Bill

01-18-2005, 06:13 PM	#22
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Heinz, Naples and Jacksonvillle are on opposite sides of the state My guess it would be a 5 to 6 hour drive between the two. But I guess in some parts of the county thats close Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

01-18-2005, 10:15 PM	#24
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Bill, The guy who is selling this gun apparently bought it a few years ago in good faith. I believe he is selling it in good faith. I doubt if he is aware of it's authenticity, if any. The photos were supplied to me by a relative who had a good digital camera. It is interesting to read some of the feed back. I suppose at the end of the day it should "caveat emptor" I am certainly not going to jump into this area. One of the prime reasons alone is the cost. For me to purchase it would cost me NZ$21,000.00 and no one in this country would pay that for it or any other Luger much other than a 1900 carbine maybe. ( I would be required to pay G.S.T {12.5% Goods and Srvices Tax,} on the gun when I imported it, were as the same item already in New Zealand is classed as "second hand goods" and thus attracts no tax,) The second reason is that I cannot determine it's authenticity from "down under" here" I have thus offered it up to all on the forum "where is, as is" warts and all! Regards Murray __________________ Lugers down under

01-18-2005, 10:28 PM	#25
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Murray, I am glad Bill stepped in on this piece. It is way out of my area of knowledge, but even to my untrained eye it looks really bad. As Bill said, be thankful that the Borchardt (nice purchase by the way!) precluded your acquisition of this dubious example. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-19-2005, 12:55 AM	#27
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Interesting...I guess I better let the big dogs roam and stay on the porch. I still have a lot to learn. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-19-2005, 09:27 AM	#30
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Geo, I was thinking "Yosemite Sam". Nice Choppers!!! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-18-2005, 02:52 PM	#21
Gene User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In Third Reich Lugers, Jan Still has reported a K-date Kriegsmarine, s.n. 2113 with property no. O.1750 -- the same property no., but different serial.

01-18-2005, 09:08 PM	#23
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	LDU, Thanks for posting the pictures. You're very lucky you have to repay the wife back, otherwise when your wife found out you bought this totally bogus piece of junk she'd be kicking your ass big time. In my opinion this is a total fake with nothing being correct on it. You better go look at some pictures and compare features before you jump into this area. Nothing is correct on this piece from the barrel to the E/M to the scriptic S markings to the magazines. Whoever is selling this as an original should be held accountable for fraud! -- Bill

01-18-2005, 11:12 PM	#26
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I agree...the gun has been restrawed....buffed...and the Marine markings look strange!!!....I handled a real Marine K date 3 weeks ago.....(unfortunately,the owner did not want to part with it)......if ever obtained ....will post photos....

01-19-2005, 07:38 AM	#28
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, Once again it is clear: this is about betting that you know as much or more than the other guy. Clearly, someone made that bet and lost. Tom A.

01-19-2005, 09:10 AM	#29
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	Murray, now I remember where I have seen you..."McHales Navy".

01-19-2005, 12:08 PM	#31
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	LDU, Please share with us the name of the gentleman who is selling this rig. Thanks -- Bill

01-19-2005, 02:41 PM	#32
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Bill, The seller is a Mr John Frooth. E-mail address is avaliable by private request to me. Regards\ Murray LDU __________________ Lugers down under

01-19-2005, 03:23 PM	#33
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Out of interest, While we are seeing some interesting comments concerning the doubtful authenticity of the K date KM, I have recieved an equal number of e-mails with contrary favourable opinions, some from persons who should know. For those of you who have commented such as ..."McHales Navy". "Yosemite Sam". and" Nice Choppers!!! . Well, you are all just jealous that I am sitting in the sun, and you are all shovelling snow! Kindest wishes LDU __________________ Lugers down under

01-19-2005, 04:13 PM	#34
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, This thread is the perfect learning example. In my opinion the above mentioned KM K-Date Luger is totally fabricated to resemble an original example. I've been waiting for some of the regulars to jump in here and explain what is wroing with this piece, but so far no one has. I guess that is because they are scared to voice their opinions due to being legally held responsible. Again, in my opinion, it is obvious that the characteristics of this piece are not correct and from the pictures you can compare this piece to a real piece in Jan Stills books and see the differences. So, in my opinioin, anyone who is saying this KM Luger is correct either doesn't know what they are talking about, or is in on the scam. Further, what's with all the private messages anyway? If you have something to say, say it to all of us so we can possibly learn something. Next, it is interesting that not a single person has even asked what is wrong with this piece. If your not interested enough to even want to know what a fake looks like, then spend the bucks and get this piece or some similar to it. I'm sure the guy who made this piece has more. -- This is actually somewhat funny but also sad that anyone who collects Lugers could think that this piece is correct! A new variation perhaps? --- Good luck --Bill

01-19-2005, 04:41 PM	#35
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Bill, "without prejudice" I am completely neutral on the gun. The facts are that the owners brother inlaw asked me to identify the gun, as he knew nothing about Lugers at all, and sought my advice. He and his family and my wife and I were attending the 13th Annual Thompson Sub-machine gun show and shoot being held in August just past at the NRA head quaters at Fairfax Va. Now ask me about 1921Thompsons and I will tell you all, but this K Date surpasses my meager Luger knowledge. It was offered to me for sale.I declined. In the spirit of our Luger forum I have offered it to the forum members. There is no "private message" conspiracy. It is a simple fact that no one wants their private e-mail address advertised and thus I suggested that if any one is interested, contact me a I WILL GIVE YOU THE DETAILS. Now! for the big one, out of interest. Can any one tell us all exactly what is wrong with the gun........... please? Regards LDU __________________ Lugers down under

01-19-2005, 04:52 PM	#36
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No one has noticed your beautiful shirt! Not everyone can wear that stuff! Looks GREAT!

01-19-2005, 04:53 PM	#38
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	OK Bill, Here is my read! The serial number indicates it's a 2nd Variation per JCS. Therefore there should be mixed script and gothic S's. I only see script! The WaA should be O-37, not B-90, S-91! The barrel band radius should be sharp, not well radiused. The magazines are all messed up and obviously a restamped fake (WaA should be O-37, not B-90, there shouldn't be the eagle stamp on the magazine bottom and the "S" should be Gothic). There is probably more, but I haven't seen that many (any) K-Date KM's so I can't comment on the Eagle/M Markings! Bill, let's here the rest!!

01-19-2005, 05:07 PM	#39
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Funny that no one had previously noticed or mentioned that the "S" stamps, and the number fonts on the two "matching" magazines don't even resemble each other... One "S" is smaller than the other and one number font has different serif's than the other... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-19-2005, 05:17 PM	#40
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Frank, You did good buddy. Now what about the sideplate and the K on the chamber and the E/M? I've seen a couple of these over the last 5 years and all looked about the same. A guy sent me two K-dates to look at and both were fabricated like this piece. Another guy sent me a picture of a KM Luger and it was like this also but without the E/M on the left panel. He got mad at me when I told him it was a fake and was going to have the guy he bought it from sue me and that it was a "new variation". The same guy who sent me the two to examine said he had a 3rd piece he'd gotten from the same guy that was a 2 matching Navy K-Date. Good job and thanks for the reply. Some of the new collectors can learn a lot from this piece. -- Bill