1942, 1943, 1944 Krieghoff questions - Page 2

Navy · 11-13-2005, 12:45 AM

John,

One truth remains: Tuition at Luger U is EXPENSIVE!

Thanks for the help in getting my Kreighoff operation started correctly.

Tom A.

Edward Tinker · 11-13-2005, 12:49 AM

and requires (or should), lots of study time!

Pete Ebbink · 11-13-2005, 11:58 AM

Honest or bogus...???

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/krieghoff45.htm

I only own one HK and have focused to Swiss collecting and know nothing about these late date HK's, but a couple of questions about this one that was for sale (and now is sold) are as follows :

1. The spacing of the chamber date numbers of "1945" seems more tightly bunched together than those 1945's shown in Gibson's book on page 187 and 188. Is this one wrong, are the two photo'd in Gibson wrong, or are both correct and differing variations ?

2. The transition of the bottom part of the trigger guard where is merges with the front grip strap is not shown in the web site photo as being that typical HK "v" shaped transition. Is this more rounded transition correct on a 1945 HK ?

3. If a 1945 HK should have the C-4 die type, shouldn't the bottom of the "O" in the word Krieghoff have more of a "v' shape to the bottom of the "O" ? The photo resolution and the whiting in the letters makes it diffucult to tell one way or the other.

SteveM · 11-13-2005, 12:13 PM

Pete,

I found this interesting....

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/krieghoffmenu.htm

This wouldn't be you, would it?
Seems these folks are somewhat touchy...

Pete Ebbink · 11-13-2005, 12:44 PM

Hi Steve,

That is probably a reference to me. I was "borrowing" their photos for show & tell earlier on the Luger Forum. I still do not understand how an outfit that wants to take your money will not let you, easily, download their photos for your purchase documentation.

Last Reno show I attended, Ralph Shattuck told me the story, in reference to using photos on the PIA site, that "we" (his word...) just collected a $ 10K settlement from some collector that was using their photos on the Internet.

I also left a little joke message in the PIA Guest Book area that said "...This means you too, Ralph...".

Ralph's story did impress upon me :

1. It was a little warning in my direction to stop using their photos publically. Since then, I just use a hot link to their web site on the Luger Forum.

2. Confirmed to me Ralph's business and financial interest in the PIA outfit.

Edward Tinker · 11-13-2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
Hi Steve,

That is probably a reference to me. I was "borrowing" their photos for show & tell earlier on the Luger Forum. I still do not understand how an outfit that wants to take your money will not let you, easily, download their photos for your purchase documentation.

Last Reno show I attended, Ralph Shattuck told me the story, in reference to using photos on the PIA site, that "we" (his word...) just collected a $ 10K settlement from some collector that was using their photos on the Internet.

the only problem I have with this is that there is a huge differnce in using photos to try and sell, i.e. borrowing photos and using them for reselling an item. Rather than for research or teaching others. That is legal, any copyright or legal papers state that under copyright that you may use parts of a book, article, and I would imagine website, as long as it is in a teaching environment and not meant for profit? A "percentage, usually 10% is what i have heard may be used.

Besides, although Right Click is turned off, Edit COPY is not. You choose Select All and copy everything and paste it into a new word document,

or else you save the entire webpage, thus saving the same pictures?

Ed

SteveM · 11-13-2005, 12:59 PM

I see....

MauserLugers · 11-14-2005, 02:18 AM

For what it's worth: I know two collectors that sold their 1945 HK's 15 to 25 years ago because they believed they were not correct. One of them told me a story about a guy who died and when he went into the dead man's workshop he found numerous receivers dated 1945, along with other HK parts. The man who died was an machinest. This man said he saw this and I have no doubt that he made numerous 1945 dated HK's. This took place 40 to 50 years ago. So, perhaps there are some real 1945 HK and this man used one of them as his model, but from what I was told and from the source ( a highly reputable collector), I believe a lot of the 1945 HK's are outright fakes. -- Bill

John D. · 11-14-2005, 09:15 AM

Hey Bill,

Yep - I agree and heard the same account some time ago. For that, and out of the small sample I've looked at over the years, I know of one 1945 that is highly suspect. However, the others appear correct, but unfortunately - it's a small sample to draw from, so we may never know how many are "right" and how many have been "manufactured" post 1945. FWIW - I also believe there are some second variation 1944 HKs that fall into the same category...

Best to you!

John

Navy · 11-14-2005, 09:17 AM

Bill,

I have heard the same story. The guy, I was told, was a retired commercial pilot and skilled machinist and liked making fantasy pieces just to see what people would believe.

Stranger things have happened.

Tom A

MattR · 11-14-2005, 06:02 PM

what you do all think of this one? I just found it today.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/auctions/search2.php
go to item number 1131.

Navy · 11-14-2005, 06:17 PM

It scares me too. Gibson is very knowledgable but there are mistakes in his book....

11-13-2005, 12:49 AM	#22
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,929 Thanks: 2,029 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	and requires (or should), lots of study time! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-13-2005, 12:45 AM	#21
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	John, One truth remains: Tuition at Luger U is EXPENSIVE! Thanks for the help in getting my Kreighoff operation started correctly. Tom A.

11-13-2005, 11:58 AM	#23
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Honest or bogus...??? http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/krieghoff45.htm I only own one HK and have focused to Swiss collecting and know nothing about these late date HK's, but a couple of questions about this one that was for sale (and now is sold) are as follows : 1. The spacing of the chamber date numbers of "1945" seems more tightly bunched together than those 1945's shown in Gibson's book on page 187 and 188. Is this one wrong, are the two photo'd in Gibson wrong, or are both correct and differing variations ? 2. The transition of the bottom part of the trigger guard where is merges with the front grip strap is not shown in the web site photo as being that typical HK "v" shaped transition. Is this more rounded transition correct on a 1945 HK ? 3. If a 1945 HK should have the C-4 die type, shouldn't the bottom of the "O" in the word Krieghoff have more of a "v' shape to the bottom of the "O" ? The photo resolution and the whiting in the letters makes it diffucult to tell one way or the other.

11-13-2005, 12:13 PM	#24
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Pete, I found this interesting.... http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/krieghoffmenu.htm This wouldn't be you, would it? Seems these folks are somewhat touchy...

11-13-2005, 12:44 PM	#25
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Steve, That is probably a reference to me. I was "borrowing" their photos for show & tell earlier on the Luger Forum. I still do not understand how an outfit that wants to take your money will not let you, easily, download their photos for your purchase documentation. Last Reno show I attended, Ralph Shattuck told me the story, in reference to using photos on the PIA site, that "we" (his word...) just collected a $ 10K settlement from some collector that was using their photos on the Internet. I also left a little joke message in the PIA Guest Book area that said "...This means you too, Ralph...". Ralph's story did impress upon me : 1. It was a little warning in my direction to stop using their photos publically. Since then, I just use a hot link to their web site on the Luger Forum. 2. Confirmed to me Ralph's business and financial interest in the PIA outfit.

11-13-2005, 12:59 PM	#27
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	I see....

11-14-2005, 02:18 AM	#28
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	For what it's worth: I know two collectors that sold their 1945 HK's 15 to 25 years ago because they believed they were not correct. One of them told me a story about a guy who died and when he went into the dead man's workshop he found numerous receivers dated 1945, along with other HK parts. The man who died was an machinest. This man said he saw this and I have no doubt that he made numerous 1945 dated HK's. This took place 40 to 50 years ago. So, perhaps there are some real 1945 HK and this man used one of them as his model, but from what I was told and from the source ( a highly reputable collector), I believe a lot of the 1945 HK's are outright fakes. -- Bill

11-14-2005, 09:15 AM	#29
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hey Bill, Yep - I agree and heard the same account some time ago. For that, and out of the small sample I've looked at over the years, I know of one 1945 that is highly suspect. However, the others appear correct, but unfortunately - it's a small sample to draw from, so we may never know how many are "right" and how many have been "manufactured" post 1945. FWIW - I also believe there are some second variation 1944 HKs that fall into the same category... Best to you! John

11-14-2005, 09:17 AM	#30
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Bill, I have heard the same story. The guy, I was told, was a retired commercial pilot and skilled machinist and liked making fantasy pieces just to see what people would believe. Stranger things have happened. Tom A

11-14-2005, 06:02 PM	#31
MattR User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: MA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	what you do all think of this one? I just found it today. http://www.rockislandauction.com/auctions/search2.php go to item number 1131.

11-14-2005, 06:17 PM	#32
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	It scares me too. Gibson is very knowledgable but there are mistakes in his book....