Why was the "X" marked on RC / VoPo Lugers? - Page 2

Sergio Natali · 05-06-2016, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

thus why I wanted to be sure what we said on the FAQ was stated as best guesses or empirical evidence.

I go along with the premise that guns were stored in oil - I have talked to folks who went over to look at the Lugers and K98's and the plastic grips are made newer than the 40's.
Two separate guns

RC - usually dipped - grips replaced - many times matching - usually an 'x' on them - probably never used

Vopo - reconditioned and then used by the East Germans, usually matching either force matched or original, with vopo grips, matching, to include magazine (2/1001 marked magazine)

Absolutely true, although Ed doesn't need me to confim it, but absolutely here we are talking about two different catagories of pistols.

alanint · 05-06-2016, 01:33 PM

Fully correct K98s are not hard to find here, although what I call the internet-driven Hoarder's, (not Collectors) Market has driven prices up over the last ten years. Many of these are vet bring backs, but most of what is on the market today are reimports, be it from Russia or wherever else.

Again, I don't how else to state this, (and from the many "thank yous", our equivalent to FB "Likes", many of our most knowledgeable members agree), but in this market most of the imported surplus firearms are complete, intact, mostly if not all matching. Other than the theory I proposed above, I cannot account why the examples in your market are so poor.

DonVoigt · 05-06-2016, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

Doug

How come that the vast majority of all the K98K that are being sold here are RC and have all the same reddish sort of stock, a new s/n written with an electric pen, the usual big "X" and sometimes the waffenamt cancelled, and believe me I don't want to contradict you Doug but they are NOT matching at all, apart from the fact that genuine matching K98K are practically non existent , I can assure you about that , I used to collect K98K and I had a biggish number of them in the safe at the time.

Well,
Italy and the US are a continent and an ocean apart.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are different "qualities" of RC weapons for sale, or were.

What one sees in any given market is the result of who, where, when, and how many were purchased at the time. JMHO.

Sergio Natali · 05-06-2016, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Well,
Italy and the US are a continent and an ocean apart.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are different "qualities" of RC weapons for sale, or were.

What one sees in any given market is the result of who, where, when, and how many were purchased at the time. JMHO.

I agree if we talk about 1911 pistol, but about K98K I respectfully disagree, apart from me, I know that top notch German collectors in the past years have found a lot of people in the States genuinely enthusiast but perhaps not enough informed.

alanint · 05-06-2016, 03:21 PM

And yet the rifles are here, mostly if not all intact, as examined by many, many knowledgeable people.
I don't know where your German friends get their information, but they are incorrect, in this case.

Sergio Natali · 05-06-2016, 03:32 PM

Doug,

As I repeat I'm not an expert on anything, I've been collecting K98K many years ago, I live in Europe and I've got experienced collectors friends also in Germany, I only tell you that the market is chock full of "turds" as K98 Mausers as well as Luger pistols are among the most "faked" of all collectible arms, and these beautiful guns have been faked and restamped with new markings for many years now, and it's very, very difficult believe me, to tell a genuine original one from a fake or from some sort of a "put" together to make matching.
I can assure you that many serious an experienced K98K collectors have got burnt on that, .
Fakery now is worse than 1911s. Some of the original factory stamps, captured from the factories, are out there and there are complete sets of fake stamps available. The fake stamps are getting better/closer to originals. It is a swamp, believe, that's why I stopped collecting them.
The best site on K98s is the K98kforum with the three book series authors there, not to mention most of the contributors. They are rarely fooled. Having the three book series is essential IMO, the middle book is coming in less than a year and will be massive.
Long time ago I hung out with these guys and attempted to learn more...

K98K are a deep swamp with more than 90% being total fakes and many of the remaining 10% not being totally original, but only "correct".
The prices were skyrocketing, and snipers K98 were worse still!
A common example, like a byf 44 (wich is probably the most common of all codes) in just decent condition like 75% if all original and complete brings the equivalent price of about $2000/2500. Then the snipers perhaps about $10-35K.

Kind regards and have a nice week end.

DonVoigt · 05-06-2016, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

I agree if we talk about 1911 pistol, but about K98K I respectfully disagree, apart from me, I know that top notch German collectors in the past years have found a lot of people in the States genuinely enthusiast but perhaps not enough informed.

Not a question of being "informed" , only having eyes to see!

I totally resent your insult and implication that somehow "German collectors" have a corner on knowledge of firearms!

I would dare say that there are more "correct" K98 rifles in the US brought back from their former owners possession; not to mention the largest market in the world for surplus firearms, like the RC rifles.

You know not of what you speak.

alanint · 05-06-2016, 03:50 PM

This has gotten bizarre. German collectors now know more about our market than we do and 90% of the K98s here are fake?

I am also concerned at the "dis" to our knowledge base here.
I think I'll step away from this, as I have done my best to illustrate simple facts and my own empirical observations.

mrerick · 05-06-2016, 09:08 PM

This has certainly drifted away from the original topic I posted.

I think that the one thing coming out of this thread is that to combat the boosting and faking of any of our collector firearms, we need good databases, documentation and the ability to compare and evaluate known original copies.

As values rise, and there is money to be made, it's safe to assume that people will work to defraud collectors.

If those of us with experience work together, we can combat and defeat those that would victimize us.

Perhaps a new constructive thread on that issue is due. This thread feels like it's had it's day...

Marc

05-06-2016, 03:32 PM	#26
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Doug, As I repeat I'm not an expert on anything, I've been collecting K98K many years ago, I live in Europe and I've got experienced collectors friends also in Germany, I only tell you that the market is chock full of "turds" as K98 Mausers as well as Luger pistols are among the most "faked" of all collectible arms, and these beautiful guns have been faked and restamped with new markings for many years now, and it's very, very difficult believe me, to tell a genuine original one from a fake or from some sort of a "put" together to make matching. I can assure you that many serious an experienced K98K collectors have got burnt on that, . Fakery now is worse than 1911s. Some of the original factory stamps, captured from the factories, are out there and there are complete sets of fake stamps available. The fake stamps are getting better/closer to originals. It is a swamp, believe, that's why I stopped collecting them. The best site on K98s is the K98kforum with the three book series authors there, not to mention most of the contributors. They are rarely fooled. Having the three book series is essential IMO, the middle book is coming in less than a year and will be massive. Long time ago I hung out with these guys and attempted to learn more... K98K are a deep swamp with more than 90% being total fakes and many of the remaining 10% not being totally original, but only "correct". The prices were skyrocketing, and snipers K98 were worse still! A common example, like a byf 44 (wich is probably the most common of all codes) in just decent condition like 75% if all original and complete brings the equivalent price of about $2000/2500. Then the snipers perhaps about $10-35K. Kind regards and have a nice week end. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

05-06-2016, 09:08 PM	#29
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	This has certainly drifted away from the original topic I posted. I think that the one thing coming out of this thread is that to combat the boosting and faking of any of our collector firearms, we need good databases, documentation and the ability to compare and evaluate known original copies. As values rise, and there is money to be made, it's safe to assume that people will work to defraud collectors. If those of us with experience work together, we can combat and defeat those that would victimize us. Perhaps a new constructive thread on that issue is due. This thread feels like it's had it's day... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-06-2016, 01:33 PM	#22
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Fully correct K98s are not hard to find here, although what I call the internet-driven Hoarder's, (not Collectors) Market has driven prices up over the last ten years. Many of these are vet bring backs, but most of what is on the market today are reimports, be it from Russia or wherever else. Again, I don't how else to state this, (and from the many "thank yous", our equivalent to FB "Likes", many of our most knowledgeable members agree), but in this market most of the imported surplus firearms are complete, intact, mostly if not all matching. Other than the theory I proposed above, I cannot account why the examples in your market are so poor.

05-06-2016, 03:21 PM	#25
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	And yet the rifles are here, mostly if not all intact, as examined by many, many knowledgeable people. I don't know where your German friends get their information, but they are incorrect, in this case.

05-06-2016, 03:50 PM	#28
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	This has gotten bizarre. German collectors now know more about our market than we do and 90% of the K98s here are fake? I am also concerned at the "dis" to our knowledge base here. I think I'll step away from this, as I have done my best to illustrate simple facts and my own empirical observations.