DWM Commercial Survey--call for data

[Weasel505]

I hope this goes thru:

1900 (Old Model):
*serial number #2029
*variation
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
*proof marks, left receiver and barrel
...no proof marks
*Swiss cross + on barrel? YES
*grip safety
...narrow N (extends halfway across grip strap)
*Thumb safety type
...type 2, raised-checkered
*Where is the takedown lever numbered?
...right, round end R
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

HTH.

Weasel

[hawaiico]

Not quite sure how to add to the database? But, here's one more that is not included:
DWM 1921 SN: 87191

[Pistol]

DWM Commercial - 1911 (?)

*serial number: 58851
*proof marks on left receiver: crown over Lazy N
*Stamped GERMANY: No
*Recoil spring well spur or straight: Spur
*c/X c/X c/X military proofs: No Military Proofs
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics:
(1) All matching serial numbers (including grips); Mag #1 no serial # on wood base; Mag #2 serial number indicates police mag
(2) Unrelieved sear and no hold-open
(3) Non-reinforced frame.
(4) Gun captured by a Third Infantry Division GI during the liberation of Munich late April or early May 1945; Came with 1911 AWM holster marked 16.J.R.1.B and 2.B.J.R. IIB. The owner claimed to be the mayor or vice mayor of Munich.
(5) Blue fire color visible on one grip screw; rear toggle pin, mag & sear springs

[wlyon]

Dwight
Local gunshow today. 1906 AE serial # 35060. Germany on front of frame. Overall 80% or so. All visable numbers match. Bill

[Don M]

Dwight, see http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=23910

[Sam Steele]

Hi Gents,

I have a Model 1900................
Serial # 4129
8th Variation
Commercial
BUG proofed
GERMANY marked too!
Narrow grip safety
Type 1 thumb safety
Relieved frame
Take-down lever numbered on bottom
IDEAL grips!

Possibly assembled in 1905, but sent to North America, where it picked up the IDEAL grips. Too bad the stock isn't with it.

Cheers,

Bill

[MFC]

Hi Bill,
M1900 S#4129 with early features predates the US Test Eagles.
What makes you say "Possibly assembled in 1905"?

[Sam Steele]

Hi Mike,

As a guideline used by Bobba in his book, that serial number range if applied by DWM outside the Swiss pistols, would place it at being assembled in 1905. As the various parts are first series, first variation (save for the relieved frame), I take it to mean that the parts are from 1900-1901, hence Bobba's definition of "Eighth Variation".

The BUG proofs were only required for the European market, and were no doubt applied at the time of manufacture. When the pistol was sold to a North American customer, the Americans placed the "GERMANY" marking on it, as per their regulations governing imported firearms. As I said, the IDEAL grips are a logical addition by the owner on this side of the Atlantic, though sadly the actual holster section is no longer with the pistol.

I have it presently for sale here in Canada, and while the interest would be much greater in the U.S., the paper trail to send it to the States would be "less smooth" than here.

Cheers,

Bill

[Ron Wood]

Bill,

Good luck on the sale of your 1900 Commercial. That is a nice early serial number and great early features...a Type I safety is really neat. Commercial pieces are not common on this side of the puddle, the majority are American Eagle. The Ideal grips are a nice bonus, but unfortunately the stock is the hard part to find.

One slight comment, the GERMANY marking was an export stamp and was applied in Germany, not the US.

[Sam Steele]

Thanks for the info on the GERMANY marking, Ron....I didn't know that!

An IDEAL stock was seen fairly recently at a local Show. Perhaps it will reappear at our next Show this coming Sunday. It would be nice to "marry up" the IDEAL bits before she sells.

Cheers,

Bill

[MFC]

Bill,
Thanks for the response, but I'm even more confused now. I'm sure it would help me understand if I had Bobba's book, which I don't.
Were the S#'s applied to the parts in 1900/1901, and the gun assembled and finished in 1905, out of sequence? What am I missing?

[Sam Steele]

Hi Mike,

Bobba's book is superb. While it deals primarily with the Swiss variation of the Luger, it does delve into the DWM side of things as well.

My gun would fall into what he describes as the "eighth variation". He describes it as thus:

".....a final variation of this model, the 8th, which is composed of commercial pistols which were produced in those years by DWM for the civil market (not only Swiss). All these pistols have the tight trigger of the first variation, while the safety grip and the manual safety lever vary from weapon to weapon, according to the period in which production is placed....The serial number could have been composed of 3, 4 or even 5 numbers, and the highest known numbers are round about no '22000'.......These commercial Model 1900 pistols, excluding those that were destined to go overseas, bear the German proofmarks (the so-called 'BUG').......The long interval in which this numeration falls highlights the fact that they were produced together with other models (commercial or not) during a period of several years."

So....at the top end of serial number 22000, that would be in the region of the Model 1900/06 commercial pistol. Bobba shows my serial number 4129 , "SUPPLIED (my capitals) between 1905 and 1906". That's quite a spurt of manufacturing in such a short period. While I couldn't immediately find his remarks on production, I take that to mean that guns were assembled /supplied much more readily if parts were already on hand - thus the variation of first series, first variation parts. As an 8th variation, it appears that DWM were literally "sweeping up" old stock parts and assembling pistols from them, finally applying the serial number at the time of assembly.

I hope that this helps.


Cheers,

Bill

[Ron Wood]

Bill,
The conclusions you have drawn from Bobba's descriptions are understandable. However, I do not believe that your low serial number gun could have been assembled as late as 1905. Consider that your gun is lower than the serial numbers of the U.S. Test Trial Lugers (also drawn from commercial production) which were delivered in October 1901. I am relatively certain that your early commercial was produced not later than 1901.

[Sam Steele]

Hi Ron,

I've been going through Reese's book on the U.S. Test Trials, and wondered if they had a seperate serial number range. I have to admit that if Bobba said "up to 22000" serial number range for the 8th variation, then that would have been a lot of pistols made in 1905-06.

But, I see that the commercial range wasn't interrupted by DWM, and yes, it's more logical to imagine a pistol with 1900-01parts to be built at that time, and not 4 or so years later.

My apologies for jumping to conclusions. That's why it's important to meet knowledgeable Gents such as yourself, in order for me to learn more.

Even better to know that my 1900 pre-dates the Test Trial Lugers. I'd be smarter to hold on to it, and look for that errant IDEAL stock.......................

Cheers,

Bill

[Dwight Gruber]

Bill,

Take a look at this link http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...rcial+database

--Dwight

[Sam Steele]

Hi Dwight,

Thanks for the guide. I notice that under the "Thumb safety Variations" that you wrote,

"There is also a range from sn 3206 to sn 4680 (at most) in which Type-1 and Type-2 safeties are intermixed."

As my sn 4129 is a Type-1 lever with narrow grip safety and trigger, this would make sense. I'm also tempted to try to estimate when the production date of my Model 1900 took place - perhaps in late 1900.

This Sunday is our local gun show. An IDEAL holster section was seen in the past for $625, so perhaps it may yet reappear. I'll have to ask around.

Cheers,

Bill

[Sam Steele]

Hi Gents,

Just two pics. I have a number of others, but they were taken of the individual parts when I had filed-stripped it. None of her in one piece.


Cheers,

Bill

[MFC]

Bill,
Very nice original early 1900. I saw an Ideal holster and grip set at the Louisville SOS show, for $5000! If you find that holster, JUMP on it.
Good luck and thanks for the pics.

[Sam Steele]

Good God !

Thanks Mike......Needless to say, firearm prices aren't as "hot" up here as they are in your neck of the woods. Geez....If I can grab that holster part, maybe I should flog the set south of (our)the border. The paperwork isn't as much of a pain at my end, now that I know the ropes.

I'll have to take more detailed pics of the entire pistol, anyhoo.

Bye the bye....A Swiss 1900 Luger is probably about 4-5 grand up here. I believe that someone suggested 10 grand in the States.


Cheers,

Bill

[Ron Wood]

That $5000 holster and grip set was in mint condition in the original box, not your run of the mill example. The only 1900 Swiss that I am aware of that approaches the 10 grand mark is a very early example in near mint condition and with an unrelieved frame. Four or five grand is about the going rate for a nice one in the States also.