30 Luger Cartridge Conversion

[alvin]

Very very cool!! But I missed one step -- how did you create that bottleneck on the case? On picture #6, it's straight case, and it's bottlenecked case on picture #7. Was that done by the RCBS resizing die?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

Very very cool!! But I missed one step -- how did you create that bottleneck on the case? On picture #6, it's straight case, and it's bottlenecked case on picture #7. Was that done by the RCBS resizing die?

...As I wrote -

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Full length sizing in an RCBS resizing die to form. Lube case well.

So, yes.

I've read references here to 'having' to buy 'forming dies' to make wildcat cases (or in this case a pistol case from a rifle case). I have done and still do form my cases in the reloading/sizing die. I have never seen the need for a 'forming' die. The hardest wildcat I've had to make, the 38-45 Clerke, still forms quite easily if you use virgin brass and lube it liberally.

(As far as I can tell by looking, 'forming dies' are simply reloading dies with the interior machine operations left out.)

[ithacaartist]

Annealing the mouth area of the cases would make re-forming easier. I think the forming itself might re-harden the material sufficiently. Anybody ever try this?

[rhuff]

I had RCBS make me a reforming die to reform 44-40 brass into 38-40 brass. It took about a month to get it. I don't know what steel that they use in these reforming dies but boy it is HARD!! A file will not touch it. This die is designed so that one can saw/file the excess brass neck of the 44-40 brass while still in the reforming die, and not hurt the die. This is the only one that I own.

[sheepherder]

I had some spare time today, so I ran a small number of .223 Remington and 38 Special brass cartridge cases through the conversion process. (These are for 30 Mauser/30 Tokarev, but 30 Luger is exactly the same process). So, here we go again!!!

First is the .223 Remington cases -



Raw fired cases; cutting them to length with a parting tool in the lathe; Short case parted off; raw short 30 cal cases...



Sizing the short cases to form the bottleneck; trimming them to final length; chamfering/breaking inner & outer edges; finished 30 cal cases.

Cases can also be cut to approximate length with a mini-pipe cutter -



I next did some 38 Special cases, to 30 cal -



Turning the rim off; finished rim; Cutting the extractor groove; chamfering the groove. I didn't want to spend the time grinding a cutoff tool to the correct profile, so I just ran the wide cutoff bit in at an angle.



Sizing in the full-length 30 cal sizing die; chucking the sized cases in the Forster case trimmer; cases cut to final length; comparison of .223 Remington/38 Special/30 cal Starline finished cases.

I chucked the cases in the lathe using a drill bit for a mandrel and set the tailstock/live center to the required length. I also used the drill bit/mandrel while parting. There were a few steps I didn't bother photographing, such as lubing before sizing; de-priming; measuring length; etc.

Finished cases are now ready for reloading!

Here's the specs on .223 Remington vs 30 Luger cartridge cases.



There are other cases close enough to work, but (like the 38 Special) may require extra work.

I generally fire mild loads in reworked cases the first time, to 'fire form' them to final configuration.

Dave, I've read about sitting fired cases in water and heating the necks with a torch to anneal them, but I've never tried it.

Huntington Die Specialties makes all the dies for RCBS, it's usually faster to just contact them directly.

The steel in the dies is [IIRC} 8500 series steel; you can heat it to cherry red and let it cool slowly to 'un-harden' it. They can then be machined. I've cut down a couple of dies this way.

All old/obsolete reloading tech. There's easier ways to do it, but this has gotten me this far, so I've resisted change (so far!)

I tried the drill on the case trimmer; I'm still mulling over whether it's worth adopting that... But a big Thank You! to patronen for sharing the idea!!!

[Patronen]

I have turned .223 into 7.62 tok in almost the same way using the same type of pipe cutter. I did it mostly as an experiment to see if I could. It worked but I was reloading for the CZ-52 which has a tight chamber and the spin test of every round was annoying me so I gave up after making up a couple dozen rounds. I case form the same way in regular dies. I was given a bunch of .30-06 and .270 casings awhile back and have made from both those parent cases 8mm Mauser, 7.65 Argentine, 7x57, .308 and 7.7 Jap which is actually a slightly smaller rim diameter but will usually work.

Here is a pic of a homemade case tumbler

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Patronen

Here is a pic of a homemade case tumbler

I don't know what a spin test is but I see you have another antique drill motor!!!

I made up the 30 Mauser brass for my Serbian M57, which I haven't shot yet. I had some commercial brass left over so I made some 7.65 Luger for my Star BM.

30 Luger at top, 30 Mauser at bottom, two for comparison in middle.

[Patronen]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I don't know what a spin test is

The spin test is slang pertaining to the CZ52 and usually surplus 7.62 ammo. The chamber is tight on the CZ52 and some of the cases are sometimes too wide and too long to properly seat. So some people that shoot surplus in a CZ52 will pull out the barrel and take each cartridge to see if it fits before using if not there can be stoppages at the range and it's a PITA. I gave up shooting surplus in the CZ52 for 2 reasons, the one above mentioned and the variaing powder charges that can happen in surplus. When forming the .223 case into 7.62Tok I had the barrel next to the reloading bench to make sure the length of the case with seted bullet would drop in, after about 25 rounds and a few failures in some hours I felt buying Selior and Belliot 7.62Tok to shoot and reload or Starline cases may be the better way to go.
Case annealing is something I have not done, I don't shoot heavy charges and since alot of the brass was obtained next to nothing I feel a case that splits can go into the trash.
As Rick W has said there is quite a few steps to turn for example .270 into .308 using regular dies it can be done if you turn it first into another caliber or sometimes 2 on your way down, fun for the challenge to say you did it but not at all practical for quantity in my opinion when using a simple single stage press.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

But I would not form 223 to 30 Luger unless that is all I had or just wanted to do it for fun.

Originally Posted by Patronen

...fun for the challenge to say you did it but not at all practical for quantity in my opinion when using a simple single stage press.

There was a time in the early '70's when you could not find 7.63 Mauser or 7.65 Luger brass, loaded ammunition, or even old surplus anywhere...making it was the only way to shoot an old firearm...I got into cartridge conversion/wildcats when I had my first 45 Colt Auto and wanted to shoot the 38-45 Clerke out of it. That led me into chamber reaming and case forming. I also had a Chinese rifle that shot 7.62 x 39 and there was no ammo available for that either. * But .223/5.56mm cases were all over the place, you couldn't walk 10 feet on the range without stepping on them. So that got used to make just about everything. I still find once-fired .223 brass at the local range (along with police 9mm). Hey - If it's free, it's for me!

The spin test is slang pertaining to the CZ52 and usually surplus 7.62 ammo. The chamber is tight on the CZ52 and some of the cases are sometimes too wide and too long to properly seat...

I have a 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev chamber reamer if you want to see if that chamber will open up a bit...

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I probably loose about 85 percent of my Luger brass at the local indoor range...

I lose one out of five expended cases in our indoor range...No idea where those 5 - 10 cases go...I sweep diligently, check corners, under benches, even get a chair and check the light fixtures...Nothing...

I mentioned it to the club president some time back and they put up screens between stations to keep the brass close to you...


* There was a gunsmith who had two boxes [20 rds each] of some Finnish 7.62 x 39 left from some exotic rifle he built...I bought them, but the price was exorbitant...And I couldn't find any more...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Patronen

The chamber is tight on the CZ52 and some of the cases are sometimes too wide and too long to properly seat...When forming the .223 case into 7.62Tok I had the barrel next to the reloading bench to make sure the length of the case with seted bullet would drop in...

I find that surprising, as the .223 case is dimensionally smaller in diameter than the 7.62 Tokarev. It should drop in with a bit to spare, and still fire-form to fit that particular barrel...

[Patronen]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I find that surprising, as the .223 case is dimensionally smaller in diameter than the 7.62 Tokarev. It should drop in with a bit to spare, and still fire-form to fit that particular barrel...

The surplus 7.62 would give problems with variances of being to long and to wide at times. Alot of the surplus 7.62 Tok packed in those 70 quantity boxes were probably destined originaly for PPSH41/43 duty and would function fine and from what I hear through the Tokarev pistols too. But I have noticed with the CZ52 the tolerances are tighter. When forming the .223 into 7.62 I wanted to be sure each cartridge/bullet seating length was going to drop in the barrel. I did not want to make up a bunch that would not function

[sheepherder]

Since i had a bunch of 30 Mauser cases ready to load (and some Red Dot!), I decided to make up some 84/85gr FMJ bullets, starting with 110gr Carbine bullets. I drilled them out with a 7/32" drill bit in my home made fixture to 84/85gr...



Much fun!

[rhuff]

I bet that those "hollow based" Carbine bullets will obturate like gangbusters when fired. I believe that what is being called the spin test is the same as what many call the "plunk test".

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by rhuff

I bet that those "hollow based" Carbine bullets will obturate like gangbusters when fired.

Nope. They fire out with no problem and leave nice small round holes in targets.

I been making & shooting these for 40 years.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Patronen

When forming the .223 into 7.62 I wanted to be sure each cartridge/bullet seating length was going to drop in the barrel.

Dave, I hear whatcher sayin'...

I have a worn C96 Mauser Broomhandle that will fire my cut-down .223 cartridges, but when I reload those fired cases and try them in my 7.62 Serbian M57, they won't go all the way in...So to correct this, I make sure the case length is trimmed to under .990" and then run them through the 30 Mauser sizing die and then I run them through a .223 sizing die...Then they will slide right in [when loaded]...

I'm making up a small batch of 30 Luger brass today, using once-fired PSD 84 military brass...Military brass has a crimped primer pocket, so removing the crimp is an extra step...And military cases have thicker walls, so the necks will need to be reamed...I measure .011" neck wall thickness on new/unfired Winchester-Western 30 Luger cases, and these PSD 84 cases have a .016" neck wall thickness [when trimmed & formed but before reaming]...More extra steps vs commercial .223 Remington brass...

Another tip I got from somewhere years ago is if you run out of Case Lube go to your local hardware/auto parts store and get some STP Oil Treatment and use that instead...Quicker & cheaper...

I want to load my 7.65 x 53 Argentine Mauser and while I have some brass, I can't find any distributor with powder...I want IMR 4895 or 4064 plus a pound of Red Dot for the Luger/Mauser, and I tried Midway, Natchez, Midsouth, and Cabelas and none of them have 4895 and only one listed Red Dot...I was planning on ordering some primers and .303 British brass and some more .223 Remington brass with the powder...My two local LGS's have no powder I want either...

To make things worse, my local LGS tells me that starting in January, NYS residents buying powder will have to submit to a NICS check before they can buy the powder...
It looks like my cartridge cases will sit quite a while before I can load them...

[sheepherder]

I been digging through all my old boxes (I moved 18 years ago; not everything is unpacked yet) and found a conversion I did many years ago...A C96 Mauser re-barreled for a .256" wildcat cartridge...

My usual .223"/5.56mm cartridge cases cut down so that OAL will be the same as a 30 Mauser (which this once was). .256 Winchester Magnum chambering reamer in a .256" barrel blank turned down & threaded into a 30 Mauser receiver. It was much longer originally (I posted a pic of it back then) but I shortened it for convenience. Also to retain what little hearing I have left - This cartridge made a really loud crack...

RCBS .256 Winchester Magnum die set cut down to '30 Mauser' size...I fired off most of my reloads, had a couple left over...

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Nope. They fire out with no problem and leave nice small round holes in targets.

I been making & shooting these for 40 years.

I didn't mean that there would be a problem with shooting your "hollow based" bullets, actually quite the opposite. With that base, when fired, I feel sure that they will obturate/swell and give an excellent sealing to the chamber/bore and experience no bullet blow-by of powder gases. They should perform very well.

[sheepherder]

I thought it was in this thread, but I don't see it...Anyway, someone commented on milling the bullets instead of drilling them...I couldn't do that with the drill fixture (holes are too deep) so I made a new fixture...

Two strips of 3/8" aluminum drilled & pinned and then top & bottom milled flat. Four 5/16" holes drilled with a .022" plastic strip as spacer between them, to allow for clamping.



Fixture with four .110" dia M1 Carbine bullets clamped in position. I milled every .020" and weighed between cuts. The final measurement was .115" to get a ~86gr bullet.





Final weighing before starting run. 86.2grs...Close enough!



Comparison of 85gr Tokarev bullet, my shaved 86gr carbine bullet, and 110gr carbine bullet.



I chamfered the bottom edge with a file to ease loading, but I think I will make a 'cap' that will press a round edge on the bottom...

I also want to make a run of 95gr cut-down carbine bullets...

[sheepherder]

Ran some more Midway .308" dia 30 Carbine FMJ bullets through the mill today...Made these ~93gr, for the Luger...

I'll call these milled bullets 'shavetails'...

First two are 'shavetails', last is OEM Midway 30 Carbine...

For more comparison, a Sierra .308"/85gr was .536" OAL, and a Tokarev 'pull' was .307"/85gr and .542" OAL...

I thought I had a 5/16" radiused edge end mill, but I can't find it, so I'll have to make do with a chamfered-by-file base on my 'shavetails'...

[lugerholsterrepair]

Rich..VERY cool! Nice job and lovely presentation.