Gunbroker: EXCEPTIONAL DWM 1908 9MM LUGER W/EXTRA MAGAZINE, HOLSTER & TOOLS FULL RIG

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Heinz

I think the number having been previously recorded as a 7.65 is troubling...

Remember, the database entry is from the Hans Tauscher sales list (secondary source), not from observation or examination. This entry is an outlier in the midst of a group or 08Commercials.

I've pondered over this one. A rebarrelled .30 cal. New Model with the grip safety removed would leave a tell-tale gap at the upper rear of the left grip plate. This frame looks like a non-grip safety frame. The only sure way to tell is to remove the left grip.

I've gone back and forth about the barrel serial number and proof. In very close comparison with the numbers and proof on sn 56861 they are convincingly similar. Unfortunately the photos are not sufficient to tell if the barrel witness mark is haloed.

The end of the center toggle axle retaining pin looks proper.

The color alterations of the photos make assessment of straw impossible.

Try as I might, in this presentation I cannot find any problems with my usual telltales on this pistol.

--Dwight

[Yakman]

I have a 1908 Commercial in at least as nice condition as this appears to be. Mine's BUG proofed. My holster is maybe a point or two below this one. I can say I would never part with mine for $6000.00. I would not be surprised if this one goes for over $8500.00. If this one is what it appears to be, quality sells.

The holster's condition is what's almost unbelievable to me. The pouch for the tool and pin punch is correctly sewn under the lid stitching. I'd think this 1908 style holster would be a hard one to duplicate and would take someone of skill and knowledge to do it.

If this rig is an example of someone's artistry, I'd think it's still about worth the $6000.00 price. I've got a '02 Fat Barrel Commercial with a mint bore done by Gale Morgan years ago that I'd be reluctant to give up for $8500.00, so don't be surprised at the final price of this gun.

By the way, I have this '02 Fat Barrel because it was done by Gale Morgan. I have long admired his artistry. I don't have one by Thor, but would like to, so have for quite awhile been looking for a candidate to ask him to restore. I admire his work, too.

Oh, and the 7.65 vs 9m/m, easy to make a misprint, nothing to worry about.

Jack

[Yakman]

Lyn Islaub, The area under the safety lever of this 1908 Commercial would not be polished. Think if you have ever seen a polished safety indication on a Luger with a down safety. The features on this gun would be the same as the original military P.08 of which it is a clone, so to speak. Although it is written somewhere that a few of the later '08 Commercials had a hold-open device added. I don't know if that's correct or not.

Jack

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Yakman

...Although it is written somewhere that a few of the later '08 Commercials had a hold-open device added. I don't know if that's correct or not...

Jack,

Getting a little far afield from the original topic, but...it is possible for an 08Comercial to have a holdopen added. These guns were originally intended for the officer private purchase market. Just before the start of the war there was a general recall of the P08 to the Erfurt rifle factory, to refit them with holdopens and new front sights. An officer's pistol could be included in his troop's shipment for refit. If so, the work would bear the refit armorer's mark on the frame by the added pin, and on the front sight. These markings on a five-digit commercial P08 are in fact the only way to positively identify an officer private purchase pistol.

I once owned an 08Commercial with a holdopen added in a decidedly non-standard fashion http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...t=non-standard

--Dwight

[Yakman]

Dwight,

The OP says "please educate me on what is so special about this Luger to price it like this?". There is no one line answer to satisfy his request, if there was, one could just say "it is what it is". Of course that's not good enough. I see no off topic discussion here if it's toward how a Luger's value or desirability is determined. I know the OP says "this Luger", but to answer that is to reference any Luger. I think his question implies any high end, high priced Luger and not just the one referenced.

Although I noted I'm aware of hold-opens on some '08 Commercials, I can't attest to it because I've never seen one. Since the OP is referencing an unmolested gun, I, too, am referencing unmolested guns. You went into quite amount of detail explaining the hold-open device on 1908 Commercials owned by officers and subsequently modified. That subject is pretty well known, and although interesting, has nothing to do with why the reference pistol is so highly priced. Interesting stuff for those who are unaware, but off topic if you are interested in staying strictly on topic. However, whether you intend to or not you, as well as I, are providing a rounded out answer to help provide clarity for those who read this, but might not have the depth of knowledge. I guess that boils the Fog Index, providing clarity for the intended reader. So, I'm not negatively criticizing your mentioning the officer's modified pistol.

I am negatively criticizing your implication I'm "Getting a little far afield from the original topic"

Although I might differ, as always, I mean no disrespect to anyone.

Jack

[Heinz]

Thanks Dwight, I missed that footnote. This just looks like a Ralph Shattuck gun to me.

[Yakman]

Heinz,

Why does this look like a Ralph Shattuck gun to you? What about it would make it peculiar to him? And, how much personal experience with Ralph Shattuck did you have to allow you come to that conclusion?

I'm not trying to put you on a spot, but I do think your statement deserves some amount of accountability.

I personally think this rig is righteous simply because there is nothing present to suggest otherwise, whether it's presented as a photo or a textual description. Whatever additional information might come out needs to be more than someone's statement as an Internet Expert. Disparaging this Luger because it looks exceptionally nice in photos on the web also disparages mine which is actually in hand and judged by 63 years of experience.

I consider no one an expert at judging a Luger's condition or authenticity from a photo on the Internet, if not stated as an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about anything. But to state something factually, needs a higher standard than a poor at best Internet photo.

Jack

[LU1900]

What about the magazine : erfurt body ?

[Yakman]

LU1900,

I believe you are referring to what appears to be a less well polished body before plating. The magazine with my 1908 commercial appears also to be less well polished than some earlier magazines we see. But, that is not to say that my magazine is without a doubt original to my gun. I like to think that it is, but there is no guarantee.

But, why would you suggest Erfurt? Why not Swiss 06/24 Bern? Their lack of polishing is more pronounced.

As far as original appearing, the nitre blued pins and surrounding areas show no signs of the pins having been removed in the photos, but I would not try to judge from pictures.

So, I maintain there is nothing to suggest this not a righteous rig until something more definitive presents itself.

Jack

[G.T.]

Hi Gentlemen! The discussion about magazines caught my eye, and I may be able to shed some light on the subject? I have repaired many 100's of mags, maybe even into the 1000 mark.. and I have noticed that early DWM Nickel plated magazines, have a unique brushed appearance, under a white (not bright) nickel plating. Now I think this is where one needs to understand about the manufacturing process, and how it affects our collectors theories? Number one, the surface of the sheet metal, is exactly what you see on the finished magazine. The forming, stamping, and blanking dies are spotless and polished, and other then making the desired forms or cut, shows little signs of distortion or deformation, in other words rash!
So, if the sheet metal surface is smooth, the mag surface will be smooth as well, if it is brushed, the surface will be brushed on the mag, again, as well. They can specify any grade of surface finish they felt best suited their end result desires. The reason I outlined this process is because, they didn't polish magazines, they came off the assembly or manufacturing line, and were plated, or blued, or heat treated and then issued? No polishing, never, ever! And, the plating was never bright, (exception, early Mauser thru 1936 )
The finished were always meant to be dull or industrial, not for appearance so much as anti corrosion? I have seen the brushed finish on early DWM P.08's and primarily Navy models as well, and mostly pre WW1. As for most DWM mags, it would seem the vast majority would be smooth finished, and dull nickel, The 1900 commercials and into the 1920 commercials generally have/had magazines that were not plated at all! I also don't think you can go by the dimple stops alone to determine DWM or Erfurt mags as I think the suppliers sent product to who ever needed it at the time, in conjunction to what the dedicated manufactures could and did supply.. A better tell for Erfurt mags, are, greenish yellow color? The spring follower cap will be normal aluminum color, DWM dark gray, the follower button will be crude and flattened checkering and unplated on the Erfurt, and the finish will not be brushed! Now, please understand, again, it is all theory, I have not one fact to hang my hat on, but it is what i've seen, and until I hear or see different, i'll stick with what I know... best to all, til...lat'r...GT

[Pistol]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

What is the year (approximately) this pistol would have been made?

Curl

1911 or 1912? Maybe Dwight can confirm.
Looks really nice for a nearly 110 year old pistol.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Pistol

1911 or 1912? Maybe Dwight can confirm.
Looks really nice for a nearly 110 year old pistol.

I'd say that your guess is pretty close and after looking at Goetz & Sturgess, 1912 would be my guess. Commercial production of the 1908 began with serial number 39100. In 1913 the police in Metz, under direct army control, began acquiring commercial 1908 Lugers in the low 60000 serial number range.

The subject pistol is serial 56698 and likely made in 1912.

[George Anderson]

For comparison here are some photos of sn 59680 with two magazines which I bought on gunbroker about ten years ago.

[Norme]

Great looking gun George, the Einwohnerwehr Bayern grip markings are a big plus.
Norm

[Heinz]

Jack, I have done businesss with Ralph Shattuck. I have seen his displays. I have seen his "million dollar carbine" Fine, friendly ,interesting guy who was an encyclopedia of Luger knowledge and an artist in "restorations" I had two long conversations with him at gun shows in Louisville.

You knew what I meant. Who are you to ask?

People more knowledgeable than me on the period seem to like this gun. I am put off by the photoshopped images whenever I see them.

[Yakman]

Heinz,

I said I didn't want to put you on a spot, but apparently I did as you've become defensive; that was not my purpose. There is nothing productive to be gained by further discussion, except to say it's unbecoming to use someone's name derisively, especially one who is no longer here to defend himself.

As to who I am to ask, I'm a member of this Forum and a Patron. If your Post was not intended for the Forum at large, why not PM the person you're addressing.

I hope you don't hold any ill feelings, I don't.

Jack

[Heinz]

Jack, all is good

[Dwight Gruber]

Lazy c/N instituted in 1912, sometime after about sn 53000; stock lug P08 instituted Aug. 1913 about sn 70150. So sn 56698 sometime early-mid 1912.


--Dwight

[briskspirit]

Thank you all for your replies and opinions!

I have one more question: Lets say you/me have that gun or have a new gun that we think will be super scarce and valuable in 100 years for our grandchildren. How do we preserve this gun in near to mint state? (Steel, wood, plastic)
So what would you do if you want to keep it for 100+ years? )


P.S.: Current bid for that Luger is $7725

[Norme]

Hi Igor,
You will probably get many different answers to your question but here's something we can all agree on, CUT HANDLING TO A BARE MINIMUM. I've been a serious Luger collector for over 50 years and my routine is as follows:
1/ Each new addition to my collection is stripped down, inspected, cleaned and lubricated.
2/ During this process I take lots of detail photos, like those below.
3/ I reassemble the gun and wipe it down carefully with a silicon cloth and then place it in safe storage.
4/ If in future I need to re-examine the gun, for example if someone asks me if 1908 Navies have numbered hold-opens, I simple refer to my photo file.
5/ I re-inspect occasionally and wipe down with the silicon cloth.
This routine has served me well and I can honestly say that all my collectible guns are in as good shape as the day I bought them.
Norm