Ever elusive parabellum rifles. - Page 2

unspellable · 07-09-2004, 05:34 PM

G. van,

I'd be interested in hearing more about the "Winchester" and other predecessors to the Maxim. I have been laboring under the impression that the Maxim was an original with Maxim having received inspiration from the crank and piston action of an engine. Not that there were not other "togglely" actions.

I believe the Maxim was the first successful "true machine gun" or at least the first commercially successfule one.

Johnny C. Kitchens · 07-09-2004, 08:24 PM

Several firearms of the mid 19th century featured toggle locks. Henry's repeating rifle, Winchester, and Smith & Wesson. Many have speculated that Maxim would have been exposed to those mechanism and transfered the idea to the machine gun. They even shared the toggle breaking downward. Maxim's first experiments involved a modified Winchester, just to prove the theory. His first working model, looked like it used the principles of a steam engine. It makes one revolution per shot, but with a difference of changing direction of rotation for each shot. Maxim was a very intelligent man, an American, who was paid to live outside of America, by the Edison and financial backers group who were tired of having to compete with him. I always thought that was interesting...

Freischütz · 07-09-2004, 10:36 PM

A prototype Browning A-5 shotgun also used the toggle system.

Vlim · 07-10-2004, 10:27 AM

Hi,

It's not sheer speculation. Hiram Maxim developed a working machinegun using a modified Winchester lever-action as a basis while in the UK. This gun was never marketed but led to the development of the first Maxim machineguns.

Startin in 1899 DWM Berlin manufactured the Maxim under license and also improved the Maxim carriages. They even developed special carriages for installation in Zeppelin airships.

unspellable · 07-10-2004, 01:13 PM

As for the first "Maxim" Maxim design operating like a steam engine, I have always understood that Maxim first designed the crank for continuous rotation as in an engine, but the powers that be in military purchasing circles were afraid of a run-a-way condition and instigated the change to the crank not making a complete rotation.

I also understand that the first time a Maxim fired in anger was in British hands in Central Africa in what is today known as Uganda where the British were attempting to pacify the locals.

Johnny C. Kitchens · 07-11-2004, 12:46 AM

In the book "Machine Guns" by Ian V. Hogg, he states that Maxim understood the problem of inertia and decided on the reversing direction crank to subdue the problem. The mechanism was completely changed to the familiar downward breaking toggle for commercial sales...

Vlim · 07-11-2004, 09:09 AM

An illustration of the Maxim toggle mechanism:

Pete Ebbink · 07-11-2004, 08:11 PM

If anyone can get a hold of LF member, Mr. Roberto Allara, he has a nice jpeg of an old Luger rifle without its wooden stock.

I have misplaced both the jpeg he sent me, last year, as well as his email address...

Pete Ebbink · 07-11-2004, 08:15 PM

Some photos from V. Bobba's book on Swiss lugers.

1st. photo is of a Henry pistol, 2nd. and 3rd. photos are of its European-issued "cousin", the Volcanic...I think both pre-date the Maxim works...

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 07-25-2004, 01:24 PM

Here is a photo of a surviving Luger rifle that resides in England. This photo was made avaiable by LF member, Roberto Allara, who secured the photo from his collector friend in England :

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rallara3_large.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rallara3_large.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Johnny C. Kitchens · 07-25-2004, 09:19 PM

Does it have a double-set trigger???

Pete Ebbink · 08-11-2004, 05:41 PM

Hi Johnny,

I think this one does/did.

Not sure, but I think it might belong to Dr. Sturgess in England...

Regards,

Pete...

Vlim · 08-13-2004, 06:09 PM

Martens & De Vries showed some interesting info on the Luger rifle in 'The Dutch Luger' als Luger offered his design to the Dutch authorities as a possible infantry rifle.

I believe they picture the same rifle which was described as a hunting version of the Luger rifle. That would explain the double trigger layout.

Vlim · 08-18-2004, 06:36 PM

Hi,

While browsing through some German patent-information during a quest for information on another subject, I stumbled across this 1906 patent in Georg Luger's name.

It shows some of his experiments on the Luger rifle, using the Parabellum toggle lock and the old-pattern leaf spring and the newer coil spring.

The patent in question is the Swiss one (35943), dated January, 3rd, 1906.

Pete Ebbink · 08-18-2004, 09:13 PM

Great find, Gerben...

And keep digging in those archives...maybe you will find the answer to your other quest ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Vlim · 08-20-2004, 01:06 PM

Hi Pete,

I was actually looking for a possible explanation of the drilled-through takedown lever when I found this.

A patent drawing showing a drilled-through lever and a fastening nut, used to secure the sideplate (for whatever wild reason) is shown in Goertz' book 'Die Pisole 08' (revised).

Sadly, the original patent appears to have gone missing. I wrote the German patent office and their reply was that it was no longer present...

Vlim · 08-31-2004, 07:18 PM

A patent describing the receiver and toggle design of the pictured Luger rifle #4 was indeed files by Georg Luger around 1912.

I found a surviving Swiss patent #60143, filed by Luger's agent on the 18th of March, 1912.

The patent describes the changes he made to the receiver and toggle design, including the small ramp visible in the center, which acts as a stop. He was obviously worried about the sturdiness of the pistol design describing that the complete functionality of the weapon rested on the condition of th rear toggle link pin.

He devised a way to ensure toggle operation without relying too heavily on the toggle pin, introducing a center and rear brace in the design. The toggle can be lifted out in an angle.

07-09-2004, 08:24 PM	#22
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Several firearms of the mid 19th century featured toggle locks. Henry's repeating rifle, Winchester, and Smith & Wesson. Many have speculated that Maxim would have been exposed to those mechanism and transfered the idea to the machine gun. They even shared the toggle breaking downward. Maxim's first experiments involved a modified Winchester, just to prove the theory. His first working model, looked like it used the principles of a steam engine. It makes one revolution per shot, but with a difference of changing direction of rotation for each shot. Maxim was a very intelligent man, an American, who was paid to live outside of America, by the Edison and financial backers group who were tired of having to compete with him. I always thought that was interesting... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

07-11-2004, 12:46 AM	#26
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	In the book "Machine Guns" by Ian V. Hogg, he states that Maxim understood the problem of inertia and decided on the reversing direction crank to subdue the problem. The mechanism was completely changed to the familiar downward breaking toggle for commercial sales... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

07-25-2004, 09:19 PM	#31
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Does it have a double-set trigger??? __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

07-09-2004, 05:34 PM	#21
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	G. van, I'd be interested in hearing more about the "Winchester" and other predecessors to the Maxim. I have been laboring under the impression that the Maxim was an original with Maxim having received inspiration from the crank and piston action of an engine. Not that there were not other "togglely" actions. I believe the Maxim was the first successful "true machine gun" or at least the first commercially successfule one.

07-09-2004, 10:36 PM	#23
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	A prototype Browning A-5 shotgun also used the toggle system.

07-10-2004, 10:27 AM	#24
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, It's not sheer speculation. Hiram Maxim developed a working machinegun using a modified Winchester lever-action as a basis while in the UK. This gun was never marketed but led to the development of the first Maxim machineguns. Startin in 1899 DWM Berlin manufactured the Maxim under license and also improved the Maxim carriages. They even developed special carriages for installation in Zeppelin airships.

07-10-2004, 01:13 PM	#25
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	As for the first "Maxim" Maxim design operating like a steam engine, I have always understood that Maxim first designed the crank for continuous rotation as in an engine, but the powers that be in military purchasing circles were afraid of a run-a-way condition and instigated the change to the crank not making a complete rotation. I also understand that the first time a Maxim fired in anger was in British hands in Central Africa in what is today known as Uganda where the British were attempting to pacify the locals.

07-11-2004, 09:09 AM	#27
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	An illustration of the Maxim toggle mechanism:

07-11-2004, 08:11 PM	#28
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	If anyone can get a hold of LF member, Mr. Roberto Allara, he has a nice jpeg of an old Luger rifle without its wooden stock. I have misplaced both the jpeg he sent me, last year, as well as his email address...

07-11-2004, 08:15 PM	#29
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Some photos from V. Bobba's book on Swiss lugers. 1st. photo is of a Henry pistol, 2nd. and 3rd. photos are of its European-issued "cousin", the Volcanic...I think both pre-date the Maxim works... <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-25-2004, 01:24 PM	#30
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is a photo of a surviving Luger rifle that resides in England. This photo was made avaiable by LF member, Roberto Allara, who secured the photo from his collector friend in England : <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rallara3_large.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rallara3_large.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-11-2004, 05:41 PM	#32
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Johnny, I think this one does/did. Not sure, but I think it might belong to Dr. Sturgess in England... Regards, Pete...

08-13-2004, 06:09 PM	#33
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Martens & De Vries showed some interesting info on the Luger rifle in 'The Dutch Luger' als Luger offered his design to the Dutch authorities as a possible infantry rifle. I believe they picture the same rifle which was described as a hunting version of the Luger rifle. That would explain the double trigger layout.

08-18-2004, 06:36 PM	#34
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, While browsing through some German patent-information during a quest for information on another subject, I stumbled across this 1906 patent in Georg Luger's name. It shows some of his experiments on the Luger rifle, using the Parabellum toggle lock and the old-pattern leaf spring and the newer coil spring. The patent in question is the Swiss one (35943), dated January, 3rd, 1906.

08-18-2004, 09:13 PM	#35
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Great find, Gerben... And keep digging in those archives...maybe you will find the answer to your other quest ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-20-2004, 01:06 PM	#36
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Pete, I was actually looking for a possible explanation of the drilled-through takedown lever when I found this. A patent drawing showing a drilled-through lever and a fastening nut, used to secure the sideplate (for whatever wild reason) is shown in Goertz' book 'Die Pisole 08' (revised). Sadly, the original patent appears to have gone missing. I wrote the German patent office and their reply was that it was no longer present...

08-31-2004, 07:18 PM	#37
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	A patent describing the receiver and toggle design of the pictured Luger rifle #4 was indeed files by Georg Luger around 1912. I found a surviving Swiss patent #60143, filed by Luger's agent on the 18th of March, 1912. The patent describes the changes he made to the receiver and toggle design, including the small ramp visible in the center, which acts as a stop. He was obviously worried about the sturdiness of the pistol design describing that the complete functionality of the weapon rested on the condition of th rear toggle link pin. He devised a way to ensure toggle operation without relying too heavily on the toggle pin, introducing a center and rear brace in the design. The toggle can be lifted out in an angle.