Anyone see the Simpson's black widow posted today? - Page 2

Ron Wood · 09-28-2006, 12:20 PM

I don't dispute that much of todays production is CAD/CAM, but I guarantee you that a good die maker/jeweler can create a wax model that is every bit as detailed and precise as machine made. I have seen incredible detail in hand made wax. Also, I did not mean that the grips would have been made by lost wax casting. The wax model would have been used to make a female mold in a more permanent substance. Then it would be possible to crank out many sets (lets see if any more turn up).

lew1 · 09-28-2006, 12:34 PM

Ron

My wife owned and operated a candy business for 10 years. She made candy and -- also sold the molds.

Because of a customer's request, she inquired (of the mold manufacturer) if a mold was available in a particular design which was a little popular at the time. She was told that it cost $90,000 to create the master mold (which would make the individual molds. So the company was not going to do it because, even though popluar, it was not popular enough to sell enough candy molds to make them money.

She was told this around 18 years ago. I doubt if the process has become any cheaper.

Perhaps hand made molds were used. Perhaps this was done in the early 40s, perhaps in the late 40s or even in the early 90s.

It is possible, but is it probable ???

John Sabato · 09-28-2006, 01:41 PM

A very interesting discussion... this is the type of thread that stimulates me the most on this forum... educated speculation of the how and why things were done or not done 60 odd years ago...

I appreciate everyone's input... and look forward to more.

Vlim · 09-28-2006, 02:17 PM

Hi,

Making a mold for food substances is more expensive because of the physical requirements of the material.

A simple casting mold can be made quite cheaply. I once watched a bunch of Cuban car mechanics knock up a new 'classic' car trunklid logo in minutes. Just a simple sand cast. (on tv, not in Cuba

)

Balder · 09-28-2006, 02:29 PM

Gentlemen,

A very interesting discussion in deed. I do not have much knowledge of Lugers in general or about grips in particular; however I do know that the Germans were pretty anal about symbols and signs. Keeping that in mind, I find it very unlikely that this slanted version of the NSDAP eagle could have been made during WW2, at least in Germany. Modifying a symbol like this would, to many German officials, appear as sacrilege.

Regards,

Balder

lew1 · 09-28-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren
Hi,

Making a mold for food substances is more expensive because of the physical requirements of the material.

A simple casting mold can be made quite cheaply. I once watched a bunch of Cuban car mechanics knock up a new 'classic' car trunklid logo in minutes. Just a simple sand cast. (on tv, not in Cuba )

Candy molds are made of "thin" plastic. (Much like the plastic found in a 2 liter coke bottle.)

Ron Wood · 09-28-2006, 03:35 PM

Charles,
I wouldn't be at all surprised that it cost around $90K to make this kind of master mold. It is made in two parts, male and female, and is made of highly polished metal to very close tolerances to be able to stamp out the plastic molds at temperatures just below the melting point of the plastic. Pretty precision stuff and expensive. The type of mold I am suggesting is not as precise and would not hold up for mass production but could be used for a limited run before it became useless.

Imperial Arms · 09-28-2006, 10:19 PM

I am surprised that there is so much discussion on a pair of grips which are totally WRONG. Under no condition would the German NSDAP government agency during WWII allow their national NSDAP eagle to be applied to a pair of (non-regulation) grips where the swastika was at the wrong angle and the eagle being slanted. These grips are probably 'post-war' or made by 'Waffenfabrik USA'.

An example of a correct NSDAP eagle can be observed on a genuine PPK Political Leader grip, and comparing a correct NSDAP eagle with the one shown on this Luger is like 'night and day'.

It is a shame that Simpson decided to list such a pistol on his web site at a ridculous price hoping that some 'sucker' will fall over it and buy it. It demonstrates that his motive is only money without upholding his reputation which is on the decline as he continues to disappoint collectors. He is walking on a thin line by occassionally offering incorrect merchandise even if he makes no guarantees (on the grips). As the saying goes, "something is not right". If Simpson cannot distinguish between right and wrong items after 25+ years in the business, then he is playing risky business which could likely backfire on him if he continues along this path. It does not take much s*** to make a bad smell.

My comments/remarks are not intended to harm Simpson Ltd, but what I say is based on fact, knowledge and reality. I notice that this forum can have a 'political umbrella' which will protect some people, but everyone has different opinions and knowledge (some more than others) which they should be able to express.

Albert

Kris1 · 09-28-2006, 10:26 PM

About time someone got the point.

I dont know why people dance around these pieces with chatter when there is a much greater issue, which is what we call "trolling for suckers".

A dealer with this reputation would be out of his mind where I come from to try this crap. 8000.00 for a pair of grips? and throw Kenyons name?. I dont know Kenyon but I know his books so how much weight do I put in that?.

I personally would not care if they were tested by grinding them and sprinking them on his cornflakes, that is fraud and gluttony whether the piece is cnsignment or not a totally inexcusable buisness practice and a sham.

Absolutley no excuse for this from a top dealer, I buy lots of toys man, but not from sellers like this.

NavyLugerLover · 09-29-2006, 02:13 AM

It is absolutely FAKE, and you will never see something like that outside the US.
It is easy to make a mould (resin) with a pair of real black widow grips.
After, you just have to engrave the mould. And the engraved part will be outside the surface of the grips...
I did that for a shooter, from a black widow pair, to make soft "Pachmayr alike" grips, rubber with metal insert. So easy you can't imagine!

But these people who are making these things are so idiot that they put the swastika with the wrong angle.

It is a shame to propose a fake at this price...

Beware if you see any marking on parts, tools, guns. 99% are fake.

Steinar · 09-29-2006, 03:08 AM

do you guys remember those fancy wood grips with swastika, headskull ++ on them?
I'm just guessing, perhaps the same guy, with access to some neat equipment is doing this for a business?
This is probably not the last one to show up..

John Sabato · 09-29-2006, 08:01 AM

Albert, perhaps you did not read all of my large posting regarding the non-authenticity of these grips... and the circumstances surrounding the sale of this Luger...

I had already voiced my opinion about all the reasons why these grips could not be authentic...

Simpsons is a business, and in the business of making money... What they sell and how they sell it determines their reputation in the marketplace... I think this item and it's sale price may have a detrimental effect on their overall business, at least from those people who are members of this forum...

Regardless of where, or from whom you obtain something... the caution is always CAVEAT EMPTOR...

Simpson's may sell this item to someone who is unknowledgeable about Lugers, but I think the net result to their business may far outweigh the profit they may make on this one Luger...

The intellectual and philosophical discussion about this item and the circumstances surrounding it's offer for sale has educated many of those members who would never have known... I congradulate you for your consideration of this event and appreciate your input in this matter... the public discussion of such things is how we keep our fellow Luger enthusiasts educated to prevent them from being ripped off.

Pete Ebbink · 09-30-2006, 05:36 PM

These, then, gotta be the "real deal" as well...

Ron Wood · 09-30-2006, 06:49 PM

No shortcuts on those puppies. They were made by a master craftsman. I am guessing they are an overlay of sheet silver, pierced and formed to an ebony backing, and the ebony is actually incised so that the overlay is inset into the ebony. It may be the lighting that makes it look gold, or it may have been gold plated...I would be real surprised if it is solid gold, but who knows. Somebody shelled out some bucks for these grips.

c3006 · 09-30-2006, 08:12 PM

Those are snazzy Pete,do the emblems match the left one looks white? what are a set of grips like that worth? clint

minigun · 09-30-2006, 10:34 PM

No expert here, but the one's Pete are showing I think belong to Goering's Luger.

John Sabato · 09-30-2006, 11:07 PM

No, the grips on Goering's Luger (SN#16999) were white with inlays... not black.

minigun · 09-30-2006, 11:48 PM

Okay, same style though right? Those grips look so familiar.

lew1 · 10-01-2006, 08:50 AM

One wonders.

Simpson has two FN Hi-Power holter shoulder stocks listed for sale:

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2869

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=1710

The are listed as "Pre-War" holster stocks.

A glance reveals that the wood has pre-war configuration.

But the holster is "Post War". Additionally, the holster is attached in the post war manner.

So what we have is a pre-war stock to which someone attached a holster ----> after WWII.

Hardly a pre-war item.

09-28-2006, 12:20 PM	#21
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,992 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,102 Times in 1,679 Posts	I don't dispute that much of todays production is CAD/CAM, but I guarantee you that a good die maker/jeweler can create a wax model that is every bit as detailed and precise as machine made. I have seen incredible detail in hand made wax. Also, I did not mean that the grips would have been made by lost wax casting. The wax model would have been used to make a female mold in a more permanent substance. Then it would be possible to crank out many sets (lets see if any more turn up). __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-28-2006, 12:34 PM	#22
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	Ron My wife owned and operated a candy business for 10 years. She made candy and -- also sold the molds. Because of a customer's request, she inquired (of the mold manufacturer) if a mold was available in a particular design which was a little popular at the time. She was told that it cost $90,000 to create the master mold (which would make the individual molds. So the company was not going to do it because, even though popluar, it was not popular enough to sell enough candy molds to make them money. She was told this around 18 years ago. I doubt if the process has become any cheaper. Perhaps hand made molds were used. Perhaps this was done in the early 40s, perhaps in the late 40s or even in the early 90s. It is possible, but is it probable ??? __________________ charlie

09-28-2006, 01:41 PM	#23
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	A very interesting discussion... this is the type of thread that stimulates me the most on this forum... educated speculation of the how and why things were done or not done 60 odd years ago... I appreciate everyone's input... and look forward to more. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-28-2006, 03:35 PM	#27
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,992 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,102 Times in 1,679 Posts	Charles, I wouldn't be at all surprised that it cost around $90K to make this kind of master mold. It is made in two parts, male and female, and is made of highly polished metal to very close tolerances to be able to stamp out the plastic molds at temperatures just below the melting point of the plastic. Pretty precision stuff and expensive. The type of mold I am suggesting is not as precise and would not hold up for mass production but could be used for a limited run before it became useless. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-29-2006, 02:13 AM	#30
NavyLugerLover User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: American Citizen outside the USA (Austria) Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It is absolutely FAKE, and you will never see something like that outside the US. It is easy to make a mould (resin) with a pair of real black widow grips. After, you just have to engrave the mould. And the engraved part will be outside the surface of the grips... I did that for a shooter, from a black widow pair, to make soft "Pachmayr alike" grips, rubber with metal insert. So easy you can't imagine! But these people who are making these things are so idiot that they put the swastika with the wrong angle. It is a shame to propose a fake at this price... Beware if you see any marking on parts, tools, guns. 99% are fake. __________________ Swiss Lugers, (.30): DWM 1900, 1906 2nd variation, W+F 1906-24, 1929 Privat, 1929 Military, 9 mm 1929 Military. WW1 DWM German Lugers (9mm): Lange Pistolen P08-14 1916 & 1917, P08 1913, P08-14 1917, Navy P1904 altered safety, Navy P04-1906 downward safety. WW 2 Mauser German Lugers (9mm): 42-1940, byf 41, byf 42 black widow. And some other things...

09-28-2006, 02:17 PM	#24
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hi, Making a mold for food substances is more expensive because of the physical requirements of the material. A simple casting mold can be made quite cheaply. I once watched a bunch of Cuban car mechanics knock up a new 'classic' car trunklid logo in minutes. Just a simple sand cast. (on tv, not in Cuba )

09-28-2006, 02:29 PM	#25
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Gentlemen, A very interesting discussion in deed. I do not have much knowledge of Lugers in general or about grips in particular; however I do know that the Germans were pretty anal about symbols and signs. Keeping that in mind, I find it very unlikely that this slanted version of the NSDAP eagle could have been made during WW2, at least in Germany. Modifying a symbol like this would, to many German officials, appear as sacrilege. Regards, Balder

09-28-2006, 10:19 PM	#28
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I am surprised that there is so much discussion on a pair of grips which are totally WRONG. Under no condition would the German NSDAP government agency during WWII allow their national NSDAP eagle to be applied to a pair of (non-regulation) grips where the swastika was at the wrong angle and the eagle being slanted. These grips are probably 'post-war' or made by 'Waffenfabrik USA'. An example of a correct NSDAP eagle can be observed on a genuine PPK Political Leader grip, and comparing a correct NSDAP eagle with the one shown on this Luger is like 'night and day'. It is a shame that Simpson decided to list such a pistol on his web site at a ridculous price hoping that some 'sucker' will fall over it and buy it. It demonstrates that his motive is only money without upholding his reputation which is on the decline as he continues to disappoint collectors. He is walking on a thin line by occassionally offering incorrect merchandise even if he makes no guarantees (on the grips). As the saying goes, "something is not right". If Simpson cannot distinguish between right and wrong items after 25+ years in the business, then he is playing risky business which could likely backfire on him if he continues along this path. It does not take much s*** to make a bad smell. My comments/remarks are not intended to harm Simpson Ltd, but what I say is based on fact, knowledge and reality. I notice that this forum can have a 'political umbrella' which will protect some people, but everyone has different opinions and knowledge (some more than others) which they should be able to express. Albert

09-28-2006, 10:26 PM	#29
Kris1 User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	About time someone got the point. I dont know why people dance around these pieces with chatter when there is a much greater issue, which is what we call "trolling for suckers". A dealer with this reputation would be out of his mind where I come from to try this crap. 8000.00 for a pair of grips? and throw Kenyons name?. I dont know Kenyon but I know his books so how much weight do I put in that?. I personally would not care if they were tested by grinding them and sprinking them on his cornflakes, that is fraud and gluttony whether the piece is cnsignment or not a totally inexcusable buisness practice and a sham. Absolutley no excuse for this from a top dealer, I buy lots of toys man, but not from sellers like this.

09-29-2006, 03:08 AM	#31
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	do you guys remember those fancy wood grips with swastika, headskull ++ on them? I'm just guessing, perhaps the same guy, with access to some neat equipment is doing this for a business? This is probably not the last one to show up.. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-29-2006, 08:01 AM	#32
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Albert, perhaps you did not read all of my large posting regarding the non-authenticity of these grips... and the circumstances surrounding the sale of this Luger... I had already voiced my opinion about all the reasons why these grips could not be authentic... Simpsons is a business, and in the business of making money... What they sell and how they sell it determines their reputation in the marketplace... I think this item and it's sale price may have a detrimental effect on their overall business, at least from those people who are members of this forum... Regardless of where, or from whom you obtain something... the caution is always CAVEAT EMPTOR... Simpson's may sell this item to someone who is unknowledgeable about Lugers, but I think the net result to their business may far outweigh the profit they may make on this one Luger... The intellectual and philosophical discussion about this item and the circumstances surrounding it's offer for sale has educated many of those members who would never have known... I congradulate you for your consideration of this event and appreciate your input in this matter... the public discussion of such things is how we keep our fellow Luger enthusiasts educated to prevent them from being ripped off. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-30-2006, 05:36 PM	#33
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	These, then, gotta be the "real deal" as well...

09-30-2006, 06:49 PM	#34
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,992 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,102 Times in 1,679 Posts	No shortcuts on those puppies. They were made by a master craftsman. I am guessing they are an overlay of sheet silver, pierced and formed to an ebony backing, and the ebony is actually incised so that the overlay is inset into the ebony. It may be the lighting that makes it look gold, or it may have been gold plated...I would be real surprised if it is solid gold, but who knows. Somebody shelled out some bucks for these grips. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-30-2006, 08:12 PM	#35
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	Those are snazzy Pete,do the emblems match the left one looks white? what are a set of grips like that worth? clint __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

09-30-2006, 10:34 PM	#36
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	No expert here, but the one's Pete are showing I think belong to Goering's Luger.

09-30-2006, 11:07 PM	#37
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	No, the grips on Goering's Luger (SN#16999) were white with inlays... not black. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-30-2006, 11:48 PM	#38
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	Okay, same style though right? Those grips look so familiar.

10-01-2006, 08:50 AM	#39
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	One wonders. Simpson has two FN Hi-Power holter shoulder stocks listed for sale: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2869 http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=1710 The are listed as "Pre-War" holster stocks. A glance reveals that the wood has pre-war configuration. But the holster is "Post War". Additionally, the holster is attached in the post war manner. So what we have is a pre-war stock to which someone attached a holster ----> after WWII. Hardly a pre-war item. __________________ charlie