Costanzo's Corrections - Page 2

jamese · 10-22-2004, 04:51 PM

Ed,
can you e-mail me a copy of the corrections
thanks
Jim

John Sabato · 10-25-2004, 09:52 AM

I will just post them right here for now... and request that if any member knows of other fact discrepancies in Sam Costanzo' great book on Luger proofs/stamps "World of Lugers", that they post the discrepancy to this thread.

Thanks,

Here is Frank's consolidate list so far...

CostanzoÃ¢??s Corrections:

1) The failure to recognize Stick Eagle-over-83 Acceptance Marks for 1938 and 1939, S/42 Military Mausers (Frank)

2) The questionable validity of the Japanese Chrysanthemum Crest on Dutch Lugers. (Frank)

3) Based on good stuff about the Navy stamps (crown/M) here on the Luger Forum in the Navy section, Costanzo's markings showing the crown "floating" way above the M is wrong... (Pete Ebbink)

4) The marking Crown/Roman Numeral (i.e. C/I, C/II and C/III) found on holsters is identified in Constanzo as being a Weimar Police District marking. I believe that it actually indicates the respective Bavarian corps. (Ron Wood)

5) Page 53, item 20 is listed as a "Magazine Release Spring" when it is, in fact, the magazine release BUTTON as identified on his other diagrams. (Luke Smithwick)

6) On page 276, middle of the page, he shows the years in which beech grips were used. He indicates that beech grips are found in "1915 TO 1916" Lugers. I have found beech grips on two honest, authentic DWM Lugers, one a 1917 and the other a 1918. (Luke Smithwick)

7) References that state S.D. grip strap markings refer to sichereitsdienst{Spelling??} (Reich Security Service) should reflect Schupo Dusseldorf. (Tom A.)

8) P. 308 the Persian contract markings. #339 is inverted from #338 and #340. Actually the inscriptions on the 4" and 8" Persians are different, a discussion held on Jan Still's Forum and lost in the Great Hack. Policelugers may be able to elucidate. (Dwight)

policeluger · 10-25-2004, 10:43 AM

I will get out my Costanzo book later today, and see what I can make of it(item 8), I will give either an exact translation, or I will note it to you that I do not understand the word/words....

Edward Tinker · 10-25-2004, 02:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Frank:
John, I have passed on all the corrections I have received to Ed. I was under the assumption that he was going to put them in the Technical Section. Please check with him, but in the mean time I'll send you a copy! Happy Halloween!!!

<hr /></blockquote>Well, the "listing" was smaller than I thought it was, and was no different than what is posted here on the forum... I hear people say there are lots of corrections to Costanzo, but if we go by this; there are all of eight corrections... That isn't bad for a 300 page book...

In reality, I believe there are more, but people don't bother helping others... I know that doesn't sound nice, but the small amount of people willing to post, or post pictures of their guns is very small compared to how many folks visit each day... I just don't get it? Lots of lurkers unwilling to help.

Ok, I just got back from the dentist and I am still groggy, plus came back from Philly Saturday and tomorrow I go to KY, then Chicago, so maybe I am not the best to be willing to share my time this week

Ed

policeluger · 10-25-2004, 02:28 PM

Your not groggy....your cranky....hope your feeling better bud. Just picked up 3 Lugers last two days....man am I broke!

Edward Tinker · 10-25-2004, 02:38 PM

police luggers? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I want to hear man, tell me about them!

Ed

policeluger · 10-25-2004, 04:28 PM

I broke the faith, Ida-alp's 1906 shown here on LF is on the way, no police safety, but you know I bought a complete mag safety from Sam a while back..humm could I make a 1906AE slash Weimar police??? and I got Pete's HK grips to polish it off, would make a fine piece....also picked up Peter Dunsters 1913/1920 with 2 matched mags (guns America), hard to find a good Berlin gun as so many were distroyed in fall of city during WW2, and a match mag 1918 from back east on Gunbroker, made offers on each and both were accepted...you want to be the first on my door step the minute I keel over, Mrs.PL could not care less about Lugers and had no idea of value

Edward Tinker · 10-25-2004, 05:05 PM

Well, I'll keep you in MY pretend will, if you do the same for me!

Hey, I asked about that 1906, need one, but they require money!!! Sometime in the future, I'll pick one up...

Other guns sound great too!

Ed

policeluger · 10-25-2004, 06:18 PM

Sometime in the future this one could be yours...think about it...

Edward Tinker · 10-25-2004, 07:07 PM

If what we'd talked about before...

Hey you need to come this-a-way, weimar_police wife would like to meet PL wife

Ed

policeluger · 10-25-2004, 10:31 PM

OK here is my best translation, remember there are 32 letters in the Persian alphabet...not all words will give a flawless translation to english, Costanzo proof 339 reads" "parabellum" (but is a close translation to "problem" also, second word is "small or short" third word is "sample"...and date "1314". While 339 is upside down 338 and 340 are also transposed right to left instead of left to right as Farsi is written/read...or is it? as I do not have an example here to look at, if 338/340 are correct then it reads "1314 parabellum short/small sample"....the chicken scratch on 338 to the right, well it really has no meaning in Farsi to my knowledge and of course no translation to english...it would be a literal translation to english "bansay" this could be also translated to a symbol, perhaps something like "pepsi", now we all know that pepsi is a soda, but not a real word in its self...I like Coke anyway...I hope this helps....please email me if you have question....my mother passed away when I was very young, grandmother continued to use Farsi around the home and American father grow tired of it and discourged it...rusty at best.

Dwight Gruber · 10-25-2004, 11:37 PM

Howard,

Check p. 227 for other examples of the chamber mark. My recollection of the previous discussion is that the inscription is slightly different for the 4" and 8" barrel length, the difference being the designation of the length.

The "chicken scratch is actually the gun's proof mark, it appears to be interchangeable with the crown in mark 339.

See Lugers At Random pp.268-269, 378; Third Reich Lugers pp.185-187 (two of the same pages are reproduced in Axis Pistols, pp.358-359); The Luger Book (Walter) pp.202-204; The Luger Story p.181.

--Dwight

policeluger · 10-26-2004, 11:08 AM

All 3 proofs in Costanzo, page 227, read the same, the only difference is the "chicken scratch proof", symbol proof and lack of proof, and it is good to hear that my rusty translation is close, that it is a symbol and not a "word"...as for LAR, the pictures are not the best, but it reads as Costanzo has it, if you could get me a clear picture of an 8" inscription, other then what Costanzo shown on page 227, perhaps I could read it....perhaps of interest is the Iranian year runs from March 21 to March 21, first day of spring to first day of spring, so order/delivery time frame for Lugers could run a bit off of what most folks think it was, not Jan 1 to Jan 1...and Walters give no picture or insight to a proof mark for 8" barrels...just shows top and left sides....

10-22-2004, 04:51 PM	#21
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Ed, can you e-mail me a copy of the corrections thanks Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

10-25-2004, 09:52 AM	#22
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I will just post them right here for now... and request that if any member knows of other fact discrepancies in Sam Costanzo' great book on Luger proofs/stamps "World of Lugers", that they post the discrepancy to this thread. Thanks, Here is Frank's consolidate list so far... CostanzoÃ¢??s Corrections: 1) The failure to recognize Stick Eagle-over-83 Acceptance Marks for 1938 and 1939, S/42 Military Mausers (Frank) 2) The questionable validity of the Japanese Chrysanthemum Crest on Dutch Lugers. (Frank) 3) Based on good stuff about the Navy stamps (crown/M) here on the Luger Forum in the Navy section, Costanzo's markings showing the crown "floating" way above the M is wrong... (Pete Ebbink) 4) The marking Crown/Roman Numeral (i.e. C/I, C/II and C/III) found on holsters is identified in Constanzo as being a Weimar Police District marking. I believe that it actually indicates the respective Bavarian corps. (Ron Wood) 5) Page 53, item 20 is listed as a "Magazine Release Spring" when it is, in fact, the magazine release BUTTON as identified on his other diagrams. (Luke Smithwick) 6) On page 276, middle of the page, he shows the years in which beech grips were used. He indicates that beech grips are found in "1915 TO 1916" Lugers. I have found beech grips on two honest, authentic DWM Lugers, one a 1917 and the other a 1918. (Luke Smithwick) 7) References that state S.D. grip strap markings refer to sichereitsdienst{Spelling??} (Reich Security Service) should reflect Schupo Dusseldorf. (Tom A.) 8) P. 308 the Persian contract markings. #339 is inverted from #338 and #340. Actually the inscriptions on the 4" and 8" Persians are different, a discussion held on Jan Still's Forum and lost in the Great Hack. Policelugers may be able to elucidate. (Dwight) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-25-2004, 02:09 PM	#24
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,919 Thanks: 1,998 Thanked 4,511 Times in 2,083 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Frank: <strong>John, I have passed on all the corrections I have received to Ed. I was under the assumption that he was going to put them in the Technical Section. Please check with him, but in the mean time I'll send you a copy! Happy Halloween!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Well, the "listing" was smaller than I thought it was, and was no different than what is posted here on the forum... I hear people say there are lots of corrections to Costanzo, but if we go by this; there are all of eight corrections... That isn't bad for a 300 page book... In reality, I believe there are more, but people don't bother helping others... I know that doesn't sound nice, but the small amount of people willing to post, or post pictures of their guns is very small compared to how many folks visit each day... I just don't get it? Lots of lurkers unwilling to help. Ok, I just got back from the dentist and I am still groggy, plus came back from Philly Saturday and tomorrow I go to KY, then Chicago, so maybe I am not the best to be willing to share my time this week Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-25-2004, 02:38 PM	#26
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,919 Thanks: 1,998 Thanked 4,511 Times in 2,083 Posts	police luggers? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I want to hear man, tell me about them! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-25-2004, 05:05 PM	#28
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,919 Thanks: 1,998 Thanked 4,511 Times in 2,083 Posts	Well, I'll keep you in MY pretend will, if you do the same for me! Hey, I asked about that 1906, need one, but they require money!!! Sometime in the future, I'll pick one up... Other guns sound great too! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-25-2004, 10:43 AM	#23
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I will get out my Costanzo book later today, and see what I can make of it(item 8), I will give either an exact translation, or I will note it to you that I do not understand the word/words....

10-25-2004, 02:28 PM	#25
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Your not groggy....your cranky....hope your feeling better bud. Just picked up 3 Lugers last two days....man am I broke!

10-25-2004, 04:28 PM	#27
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I broke the faith, Ida-alp's 1906 shown here on LF is on the way, no police safety, but you know I bought a complete mag safety from Sam a while back..humm could I make a 1906AE slash Weimar police??? and I got Pete's HK grips to polish it off, would make a fine piece....also picked up Peter Dunsters 1913/1920 with 2 matched mags (guns America), hard to find a good Berlin gun as so many were distroyed in fall of city during WW2, and a match mag 1918 from back east on Gunbroker, made offers on each and both were accepted...you want to be the first on my door step the minute I keel over, Mrs.PL could not care less about Lugers and had no idea of value

10-25-2004, 06:18 PM	#29
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Sometime in the future this one could be yours...think about it...

10-25-2004, 07:07 PM	#30
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,919 Thanks: 1,998 Thanked 4,511 Times in 2,083 Posts	If what we'd talked about before... Hey you need to come this-a-way, weimar_police wife would like to meet PL wife Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-25-2004, 10:31 PM	#31
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	OK here is my best translation, remember there are 32 letters in the Persian alphabet...not all words will give a flawless translation to english, Costanzo proof 339 reads" "parabellum" (but is a close translation to "problem" also, second word is "small or short" third word is "sample"...and date "1314". While 339 is upside down 338 and 340 are also transposed right to left instead of left to right as Farsi is written/read...or is it? as I do not have an example here to look at, if 338/340 are correct then it reads "1314 parabellum short/small sample"....the chicken scratch on 338 to the right, well it really has no meaning in Farsi to my knowledge and of course no translation to english...it would be a literal translation to english "bansay" this could be also translated to a symbol, perhaps something like "pepsi", now we all know that pepsi is a soda, but not a real word in its self...I like Coke anyway...I hope this helps....please email me if you have question....my mother passed away when I was very young, grandmother continued to use Farsi around the home and American father grow tired of it and discourged it...rusty at best.

10-25-2004, 11:37 PM	#32
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Howard, Check p. 227 for other examples of the chamber mark. My recollection of the previous discussion is that the inscription is slightly different for the 4" and 8" barrel length, the difference being the designation of the length. The "chicken scratch is actually the gun's proof mark, it appears to be interchangeable with the crown in mark 339. See Lugers At Random pp.268-269, 378; Third Reich Lugers pp.185-187 (two of the same pages are reproduced in Axis Pistols, pp.358-359); The Luger Book (Walter) pp.202-204; The Luger Story p.181. --Dwight

10-26-2004, 11:08 AM	#33
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	All 3 proofs in Costanzo, page 227, read the same, the only difference is the "chicken scratch proof", symbol proof and lack of proof, and it is good to hear that my rusty translation is close, that it is a symbol and not a "word"...as for LAR, the pictures are not the best, but it reads as Costanzo has it, if you could get me a clear picture of an 8" inscription, other then what Costanzo shown on page 227, perhaps I could read it....perhaps of interest is the Iranian year runs from March 21 to March 21, first day of spring to first day of spring, so order/delivery time frame for Lugers could run a bit off of what most folks think it was, not Jan 1 to Jan 1...and Walters give no picture or insight to a proof mark for 8" barrels...just shows top and left sides....