Need help with .30 bullet selection

[Karl]

Curl,

I will be most interested in your results. I am curious about how much harder the plated bullets are compared to lead and whether .312 is appropriate for a plated bullet. As for flaring the case mouth, I just ordered a Lee Universal Case Expanding Die, on sale at Midway for about $10. I will report on whether it works for .30 Luger.
KFS

[CptCurl]

Last weekend I loaded a batch of 7.65mm using a little .313" cast semi-wadcutter bullet I have for use in my .32 S&W Long. They chambered perfectly and shot more accurately than Fiocci FMJ factory rounds. Seating these underscored the need for a flared case mouth as there was some shaved lead. My load was 5.0 grains of SR4756. The action of my DWM 1923 Commercial cycled fine but wouldn't hold open. That's why I jacked up my powder charge to 5.3 grains with the batch loaded using the Ranier bullet.

Seating the plated bullet didn't result in shaving but it would go smoother with a flared mouth. I have a .30 cal. Lyman "M" die I use with cast loads in .30-06, but I don't think it will adjust down low enough for this tiny round. Also, the expander spud might be too long on the first stage for the 7.65mm (might hit bottom in the case). Obviously from my speculative comments I haven't dug it out of my archives to give it a try. My expander for the .32 S&W Long won't work because of the smaller body of that case.

I'm not familiar with the Lee universal die. Do you have a product number for it at Midway?

I keep asking myself why in the crap I'm playing with this troublesome round? Is it a more spiritual experience than firing the ubiquitous and easily loaded 9mm through a Luger?

I have one of the cute little buggers in my pocket here at work today. Take it out, fondle it, set it on my desk and eyeball it . . . What can I say?

Curl

[CptCurl]

Another observation from my demented mind. For those who have no stomach for paying the price of 7.65mm brass there is another solution.

I read the thread about making brass from .223 cases - not for me! Too much work. Cut the case, neck it down, trim to final length, ream inside, then you should anneal it - - No! Don't get me wrong, I would do it if nothing else were available.

We can't neck down 9mm Luger cases because they are too short. I read the thread about making a custom chamber just for this use. Not for me.

Here's my suggestion for the "do it yourself case forming society":

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=270799

Buy a bunch of the Starline .38 Super Competition brass. It's rimless, unlike the .38 Super. It's long enough but will need to be trimmed after necking down. I necked down a standard .38 Super round to get a length measurement. It looks like they end up about .015" too long. That's an easy trim job.

In the end, is your savings worth the effort to trim them? That's the question you must consider. You can have new Winchester 7.65mm brass for $0.30 per round.

Anyway, this solution is one to file away for future reference in the event things change.

Curl

[CptCurl]

Originally Posted by Karl

Curl,

I am curious . . . whether .312 is appropriate for a plated bullet. KFS

I slugged my DWM and found it measures .312" just ahead of the chamber and leade.

I've used Ranier plated bullets in .45ACP (almost 1000 down the spout at this time) and as a paper-patched projectile in my .500 3" BPE (quite a few hundred down the spout). They have a hard skin, but they are soft lead inside. No problem.

Curl

[CptCurl]

Just for giggles and grins, here's the .500" Ranier 335 grain bullet I use in my Purdey .500 BPE. I patch them up to .515".

Curl

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

This week I received in hand a box of 500 of the Ranier .312" bullets (100 grains). I loaded up 20 using 5.3 grains SR4756 and a CCI small pistol primer. The bullets are seated out to max overall length, leaving comfortable clearance in the magazine. I'll shoot these in the next few days and report back with results.

Question: I need to find an easy way to flare the case mouth on these little buggers. I have an RCBS 2 die set. I'm chamfering the mouths, but bullets would seat a little easier with a flare. Has anybody come up with a method short of buying a Lyman "M" die?

Curl

Cpt. Curl:

I called Hornady with the same question, about two years ago, and they sold me a .32acp expander die. The expander itself looks like an acorn, but works just great for .311 to .313 bullets in the 7.65 Parabellum.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

Another observation from my demented mind. For those who have no stomach for paying the price of 7.65mm brass there is another solution.

I read the thread about making brass from .223 cases - not for me! Too much work. Cut the case, neck it down, trim to final length, ream inside, then you should anneal it - - No! Don't get me wrong, I would do it if nothing else were available.

We can't neck down 9mm Luger cases because they are too short. I read the thread about making a custom chamber just for this use. Not for me.

Here's my suggestion for the "do it yourself case forming society":

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=270799

Buy a bunch of the Starline .38 Super Competition brass. It's rimless, unlike the .38 Super. It's long enough but will need to be trimmed after necking down. I necked down a standard .38 Super round to get a length measurement. It looks like they end up about .015" too long. That's an easy trim job.

In the end, is your savings worth the effort to trim them? That's the question you must consider. You can have new Winchester 7.65mm brass for $0.30 per round.

Anyway, this solution is one to file away for future reference in the event things change.

Curl

Hi:

For 7.65 Parabellum, you might price the Starline brand or the Fiocchi (spelling) brand (1/2 the cost of Win.) as both should be available at Graff and Sons.

Sieger

[Mauser720]

Curl -

Ballistically, any idea how your .500 Purdey BPE might compare with a .54 427 gain bullet in front of 120 gains of Pyrodex? I'm assuming it would be more impressive, right?

Thanks

[CptCurl]

My .500 3" BPE nitro-for-black load clocks at 2040 fps with the 335 Ranier bullet.

The standard black powder load in this cartridge was 4 1/2 drams (123 grains) of Curtis & Harvey's #6 behind a 340 grain bullet.

Here's a view of my Purdey: http://rbsiii.com/collection/rifles/purdey_500bpe/

We are straying away from the subject of this thread.

Curl

[CptCurl]

The .38 Super Competition brass doesn't have the semi-rimmed case of the .38 Super. It has the same head as a 9mm Para. That's the point of my choice of that brass.

In addition to the slugging of the barrel for dimensions, one might also pay attention to the chamber neck area, one has to be able chamber easily and also let go of the bullet.

This point should be stressed, and it applies to every cartridge. There must always be sufficient clearance within the chamber for release of the bullet. I was mindful of this, and mine is ok with the .312 and .313 bullets. But again, just because mine is ok doesn't mean that every pistol is ok. This determination must be made for each chamber.

Curl

[Karl]

The UPS man just arrived with my Midway order. The Lee Case Expanding Die works just fine for .30 Luger. The Midway number is 140461.
KFS

[CptCurl]

Karl,

Many thanks. That looks like a winner!

Curl

[Sieger]

Cpt. Curl:

You got me thinking, so I just ordered 1,000 Fiocchi (SP) 7.65 Luger cases from Graffs for just a little over $13.00 per hundred with my FFL (C&R) discount.

I'll have to wait about 8 weeks before I can do any handloading, however.

Just an unrelated question, but do you lube your paper patches after installing them? I paper patch for an 11.15X60R Mauser rifle, and have found this helpful to accuracy.

Something else about both the 9mm and 7.65mm Parabellum cartridges, they are both very sensitive to even 1/10 grain variations in powder charge and OAL variations as well. Find the right load, and you will be shooting three shot "one holers" all afternoon!


Sieger

[CptCurl]

Just an unrelated question, but do you lube your paper patches after installing them? I paper patch for an 11.15X60R Mauser rifle, and have found this helpful to accuracy.

Yes, I use the lube recommended by Paul Matthews in his book - beeswax and vaseline.

Here's a little article I wrote about loading paper patch bullets:

http://rbsiii.com/PaperPatchedBullets/index.html

It's mainly about how I mass produce the patches but also touches on various other aspects.

Curl

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

Yes, I use the lube recommended by Paul Matthews in his book - beeswax and vaseline.

Here's a little article I wrote about loading paper patch bullets:

http://rbsiii.com/PaperPatchedBullets/index.html

It's mainly about how I mass produce the patches but also touches on various other aspects.

Curl

Curl:

Great article!!

As I shoot both black (Swiss) and smokeless (IMR 4064 or Blackhorn 209) in my 11mm Mauser, I've shied away from lube with a petroleum base (vaseline) and use Safflower oil instead. With smokeless, the old NRA formula still works great 50% Alox/50% Beeswax.

It's nice to have contact with a well experience handloader!!

Sieger

[CptCurl]

I made a very quick trip to the range yesterday evening to try out my loads with the Ranier bullet. As stated above, my loads for this try are:

Fiocchi brass;
5.3 grains SR4756;
CCI 500 primer;
Rainier 100 grain .312" bullet;
1.123" OAL.

Here are a couple of quick photos of the little guy:

[CptCurl]

All shooting was done with my DWM 1923 Commercial shooter, #7762 l. It is in excellent condition with a 98mm barrel and fine bore. On this forum it would be called an Alphabet Commercial (or something of the sort).

My first thought was to try to capture one of the fired bullets. I filled 8 one gallon milk jugs with water, lined them up and shot. The bullet went through all eight jugs of water and kept going, so all I got from that endeavor was a mess.

I fired 18 more rounds for accuracy and function. Accuracy was so-so; not acceptable from what I have seen with this pistol.

Function was also so-so. There were no failures to eject. There were two failures to fully feed. In those instances the cartridge entered the chamber, but not fully. I think I know why.

The action held open on the last shot every time it was supposed to do so.

I believe my OAL was too long, and that this caused the two failures to fully feed. It appeared to be binding slightly as the cartridge made the corner around the feed ramp going into the chamber. In my next tryout loads I will reduce the OAL to 1.115"

The load shot clean. There was no lead residue in the bore. Powder residue wiped out with a patch and solvent.

I believe with more tinkering a good load will be found. More reports as facts develop.

Curl

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

I believe my OAL was too long, and that this caused the two failures to fully feed. It appeared to be binding slightly as the cartridge made the corner around the feed ramp going into the chamber. In my next tryout loads I will reduce the OAL to 1.115" Curl

Curl,

The two jams you describe above sound like the typical, annoying "Luger Jam".

Cartridge O.A.L. is critical for positive action function. Your tests for proper O.A.L. should be done before you go the range. For a good explanation of how to determine proper O.A.L., for a new bullet type, please see my thread on "Determining Proper Cartridge O.A.L." in this section of the site. I bet your O.A.L. is too short, but you won't know until you have gone through the pre-firing development stage, then the range test. The original O.A.L.s, of both the 9mm and 7.65mm DWM truncated cone bullets, were right at 1.14 inches (29mm). I have noted that the wider the "flat" on the nose of the bullet, the shorter the proper O.A.L. for proper function. Remembering that the original DWM "flat" was 4mm, you might want to measure the "flat" on your subject bullet. If I were testing, I'd start at 1.15 inches and work down .01 inch at a time until I found perfect function.

Once you have determined the proper O.A.L., for the bullet you are testing, then you are free to move on to the charge development stage. Again, I'd start at about 4.8 grains, or so, of your SR 4756 and work up 0.1 of a grain, at a time, until you get perfect action function and accuracy. Accuracy, for me, is three out of three touching at 25 yards, shot over sand bags.

When the action starts working (with proper hold open) and the groups start tightening, then you are in the range to develop a great load.

I'd be interested in seeing the necks of your fired cases. Do the necks show any pressure signs; for instance, chamber milling marks engraved into the brass?

By the way, your initial load shot through eight one gallon milk jugs?!?. If you would test again, after you are comfortable with your load, I'd really be interested in seeing just how many jugs it takes to actually stop your bullet.

Sieger

[Hugh]

Here are some 30 Luger loads that I developed several years ago:

[G.T.]

Hi Hugh, to cut right to the chase... what is your favorite .30 Luger powder?? Not load, but just the powder you feel is the most consistant, easiest to load.. in other words, fool proof... (most important quality!).. You too Sieger... ??... best most favorite... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT