I had a crazy idea, Looking for some input...

[4 Scale]

I agree there is not a viable market as that term is generally understood, but I think Mundy928 is actually addressing that fact as he describes his idea in post #1.

Given the advances in 3D printing alone that we have recently seen, coupled with continued improvements in CNC processes, design software and so on, I would almost bet that in a few years some sort of a co-op of interested Luger enthusiasts can form and get some pistols made. I've been involved in a variety of mechanical hobbies over the years and it's often amazing what talented people can create when they do it for enthusiasm for the subject, and not just for money. However IMO the technology is just not there yet to do it at an attractive price.

[P08Leder]

If it is ever done, it will be a labor of love
Because you will never make enough to be compensated for that labor

[alanint]

I have toured the Taurus facilities here in Miami and they use an metal injection mold process for many of their smaller parts. They then only require minor machining to arrive at spec.

I wonder if this process would make a modern Luger production cheaper?

[jl7422]

I do agree that at some point manufacturing abilities will cross the demand curve and the potential for new parts/assemblies may well become a reality. After all, they're making new '68 Mustang bodies. . .

[rhuff]

I would find a new Luger most interesting if the price was not prohibitive. I am a shooter, not a collector or dealer. To have a newly made Luger with modern steels and tight tolerances, would be most enticing to me. I own Mauser Parabellums, and shoot them, but one can never have too many, and perhaps different calibers would make them even more interesting.

[Olle]

The Luger is a fairly complicated gun to make, much more so than a 1911. CNC would definitely make it easier, but the accuracy in the CNC process is easily lost when you have to use as many setups as you would need when milling out, for example, a Luger frame. I'm afraid there would be a need for skilled hand fitting even when using modern day technology. I have actually shown the drawings to the owner of a CNC shop, hoping that they could at least make some parts, but it was just not economically possible even at 500 to 1000 units.

I love the idea though, it just needs to be applied to something more obscure and profitable. For example, I'd be more than happy to pay $2k for a Borchardt kit, even if I have to do all the hand fitting and finish work myself. It's no more complicated to make than a Luger, and interchangeability won't be much of an issue as nobody would swap parts between original pistols and replicas. I don't know how big the market would be for kits, but I'd say that a whole lot of collectors would love to buy a finished copy of this "holy grail". You have to cough up at least $30-40k or so for the original, so I'm thinking that a good replica could very well sell for $3k.

Add 9mm and .22 conversion kits, and you'll have one hell of a cool shooter.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by P08Leder

If it is ever done, it will be a labor of love
Because you will never make enough to be compensated for that labor

Definitely. Machining is really not a big deal, I thing the major hurdle is to get to the point where you're actually machining. There is a lot of work to do before you can put a chunk of steel in the CNC mill, it would probably take a week or so just to draw the frame correctly in 3D CAD. Add the rest of the parts, and you're probably looking at a couple of months of drawing only. With that done, you then have to start looking at the machine code, figure out the tools you need to use, optimize tool paths, setups etc. I don't have a clue how many man hours you'd have in it once everything is said and done, but I can safely say that it would take some very stubborn and dedicated people to tackle all this. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but you're more than likely looking at time you won't get paid for.

Don't get me wrong, CNC is great in many ways, but it loses a lot of its advantages if you use it for short runs. Sometimes it's actually quicker and easier to do things on a hand cranked mill.

[mundy928]

I've done some reading and think I have some information to help solve a few of the unanswered questions thus far. Feel free to add to what I have to say or tear it apart.
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-c...unFacts%29.pdf
This is a pretty good article written by a reporter that toured the Mauser production floor when they started making Lugers again in the sixties. Some of the highlights; Mauser sold their Lugers to Interarms for around $80 completed which works out to between $520 and $550 in today's consumer adjusted price index. Interarms sold them retail for between 2 and 2 1/2 times that number. (we all know after the fact that Mauser lost money on the deal). they were also scaled to quite impressive production numbers.
Mauser updated the production machining to 1960s level technology and eliminated the vast majority of hand fitting. The majority of hand fitting on the original guns came from the inability to manufacture parts to the tolerances required using turn of the 20th century machining.
The frame seems to be the biggest machining problem. It requires an obscene amount of cuts.

The Mitchell era Lugers were reverse engineered. They measured Lugers and built their own off what they came up with (with significant changes). They also did not have access to any of the original production metallurgy. It seems that the largest complaints were metallurgy and build quality issues.
I've tracked down a translated materials table, we have better metals today, the key is getting the right type of metal (malleability vs hardness and whatnot) in the right spots.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/153629976...structions-pdf

I'm also attaching the original DWM production blueprints. There are better quality ones floating around, but these work as an example. Like Ollie said, building it in solidworks would be a major pain. If you were a company paying someone to do it, I think that is where you would go broke in today's economy.

[mundy928]

The production blueprints exceed the allowable attachment size for the forum. If you want to check them out, I pulled most of them from this gunsmith forum page.
http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum...2&PN=1&TPN=1//

And Olle, just for kicks, here is your original Borchardt Owners manual.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/175718570...stem-Borchardt

[4 Scale]

3D printing, which IMO is a promising path to a precise Luger replica in the foreseeable future, continues to advance. GE is planning to make an aircraft engine with 3D.

http://www.3ders.org/articles/201607...ine-by-ge.html

The links at the bottom of the above story also are interesting; for example, classic car parts now being made via 3D assist. They use 3D to make the molds for the castings, machining on the metal casting is still required. The central problem remains: a Luger replica would be a relatively short run, so unless a lot of the 3D and machining set-up labor is donated, Luger replicas - while clearly possible - would be expensive.

[chuck17]

I had one of the Mitchell lugers a few years back, and it was nowhere near the quality of the original. I traded it off and was happy to be rid of it. Just holding and comparing an original Luger to any new gun makes me wonder in awe how they made them so well. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the new guns out there but they don't make them like they used to!

What about converting .30 Lugers to 9mm? I would imagine that there are a lot of unloved Lugers in 30 sitting in the backs of safes all over the gun-world yearning to brought out and shot. Maybe rebore, rebarrel, or make a cannon-kit in 9mm? Just a thought.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by chuck17

I had one of the Mitchell lugers a few years back, and it was nowhere near the quality of the original. I traded it off and was happy to be rid of it. Just holding and comparing an original Luger to any new gun makes me wonder in awe how they made them so well. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the new guns out there but they don't make them like they used to!

What about converting .30 Lugers to 9mm? I would imagine that there are a lot of unloved Lugers in 30 sitting in the backs of safes all over the gun-world yearning to brought out and shot. Maybe rebore, rebarrel, or make a cannon-kit in 9mm? Just a thought.

There are pretty of 9mm barrels available for a pretty simple barrel change(if you have the tools). Change the barrel and the mainspring and there you go- Bob's your uncle.

[John Sabato]

A complete set of digital P.08 Luger blueprints is available from me. I have been selling them for years, and never had a customer ask for their money back. I spent upwards of 200 hours cleaning up the scans and making them exceptionally readable. (see the sticky post in the For Sale forum)

If you are interested, PM me. The cost is $25.00 and they are delivered by download. The data is 440MB in a zip file...

[4 Scale]

I have a friend who is a VP of a manufacturing firm in China that does extensive work with machine tools and had a chance to discuss this idea with him. He was home for the holidays. He is pretty knowledgable about costs for finely machined parts. We disassembled a Luger and removed a breech block from the toggle train on a '38 Mauser, and stripped everything off the breech block so he could see the part clearly. Theory was the breechblock is one of the more challenging parts.

He was pretty impressed by the machining. Due to all the angles and cuts etc. his assessment was that while CNC, 3D printing etc. might speed the process up and make it cheaper today than say a few years ago, manufacturing a Luger replica would be a challenging and expensive undertaking. The parts are complex enough that you'd still need to cast the parts. Many would require several CNC setups. Due to the complexity of the setups, and the number of operations required to machine the various parts, he felt the setup cost would be prohibitive at low volumes. Essentially he validated the opinions of several in this thread that we are not there yet in terms of short run manufacturing for such complex/hard parts.

I would love for someone to prove him wrong. But am not expecting that for at least a few years.

[DonVoigt]

I would say the breech block is one of the simpler pieces.
The tricky and involved piece is the Frame!

[cirelaw]

A Great Discussion!!! Thank You All!

[Diver6106]

"VP of a manufacturing firm in China that does extensive work with machine tools"

If anyone could see a profit in it, it would be China with lower labor cost. But I suspect that devoting aspects of such a manufacturer to this project would tend to be very unlikely considering other more marketable projects for global sales. Very few countries would be willing to import such a pistol with the buyers in each even smaller.

Now Pakistan with 'Khyber Pass Arms' would be willing and sale in the U.S. via relatives. But they would never be allowed thru customs. They are doing good with quality knife sales and damascus steel and are good machinist.

[4 Scale]

Don absolutely he agreed on the frame. In fact he started laughing when we examined the frame - "they don't make 'em like that anymore" for a reason - too costly!! The undercut where the grip panel tops insert into the frame sort of blew his mind.

This was the first time I have ever even partially disassembled the toggle, and the first time I have inspected a breech block with all parts removed. We inspected that part because it is easier to strip all parts from it, rather than the frame or the entire toggle for example. To my eye it seemed even more complex than I had imagined perviously. I'm not a machinist but I am woodworker and even doing one in wood would tax my skills to the limit.