Digfind acquired: 1920 rework of a WW1 artillery - Page 2

Lugerdoc · 12-29-2004, 09:49 AM

Bill, This looks like a job for a 20 LB sledge hanner. TH

Bill Jensen · 12-29-2004, 10:04 AM

Hi there,

I have a 5 pound sledge, but will try not to mar the "finish" by using hardwood to pound with.

I was going to get creative with thermal expansions and liquid nitrogen or dry ice with mild leating, but I can't find a source of the cold stuff. Heating and regular ice did not help.

I have managed to free up some minor components. Its a fun project though, even if I can't get any parts to move. I love a challenge!

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Vlim · 12-30-2004, 02:03 PM

Hi,

The techniques used are quite simple and mostly consist of:

-Patience
-A large hammer (really)
-Lots and lost of WD40 and gun oil.
-A fine bladed knife that was used to cut out the rust from between tightfitting parts.

It's like a big puzzle, trying to free up parts, getting one part to move slightly in order to free up another.

The toggle was freed up by placing a large bolt all the way through the barrel until it touched the front of the breech (where the firing pin normally sticks out). You may want to drill a hole in the bolt (or metal pin) so it clears the firing pin tip.

Place the pistol firmly in a benchrest (wood blocks/cloth for protection) and gently free up the toggle by tapping the toggle backwards. Every time you manage to break a part free a little bit, coat whole bugger in oil and cut the muck out using the small blade (like a standard hobby knife). Once in a while, push back the toggle assembly to free up the action, then repeat.

Pry away as much debris from all nooks and crannies as you can.

My pistol had been in a fire and the receiver had deformed, making the task somewhat more difficult. Getting the takedown lever out was the most difficult part as I first had to get the toggle back far enough for the lever to rotate. Try tapping along the bottom of the knobs, combined with tapping against the rod in the barrel to free up the action. I got the knobs slightly freed up by inserting a flat blade screwdriver between the frame and the knobs, using the screwdriver as a lever.

All in all it was a fun project and it cost me quite some hours to get it separated, hindered by the (spent) case that was still in the chamber. The trigger guard sadly came off, but it was hanging by a few threads already. Locktited it in place for display purposes.

These are the parts I eventually managed to separate:
Please note that the full safety catch was also freed and is functional. The ejector spring is in a surprisingly good condition, as is the sear bar. The firing pin somewhat blew up in this pistol, so nothing but some debris was left. Most of the pin is still stuck inside the front toggle. The trigger is still functional and even the trigger spring could be identified.

Bill Jensen · 12-30-2004, 06:57 PM

Dear Mr. Vlimmeren

Thank you for letting me know how you managed to free up the rusted parts. It gives me encouragement that the parts in my rusty Artillery might be able to be freed up. It has been soaking in Liquid Wrench penetrant and rust softener.

Did you notice that the rails were rusted, where they fitted closely together? Did you tap on these rails to loosen or break the rust? How hard did you have to hit the threaded rod? How long did it take to first get the toggle to move? When you mean knock the knobs backward, do you mean upwards?

I love your pictures, and congratulate you on getting it apart, it represents a lot of work ! I will keep you posted on any progress I have this weekend on freeing any parts. Apparently mine is more rusty, but does not exhibit the deep pitting that your does. It was buried in alkaline chalk for 80+ years, and the wooden grips survived. I will clean up the trommel that was found with this gun, once it arrives from France.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen
California.

Vlim · 12-31-2004, 08:15 AM

Hi Bill,

actually, the moving parts including the rail were in a pretty good condition. Cutting through the rust with a small blade helped to get the mechanism going as the only thing blocking the mechanism is the expanding rust and usually it's not much rust.

You can pry the knobs upwards and rearwards at the same time, working the toggle loose bit by bit. I also did a lot of mallet tapping on all parts of the pistol, just to break the parts free. What also worked well, was inserting a small blade screwdriver between the ears and the toggle, slightly moving them apart. This again broke the rust and it gave space for the blade of a cutting knife, so I could peen out even more rust. It also provided extra space for oil to soak in even deeper.

The toggle moved rearwards after about a week of work. The receiver had to be forced out because of the fire damage, which warped the receiver so it had difficulty clearing the 'ears'. Remember, I first had to move the receiver rearwards in order to free up the takedown switch and the side plate (which came off pretty easily). Then I had to force the receiver forward again for further dismantling.

You'll probably loose the rear end of the firing pin when you start freeing the toggle. It helps to get the sear bar out before you start releasing the toggle any further. But of course, this means the side plate must be removed first.....Your artillery already has it's takedown lever and sideplate missing, so that'll make things slightly easier.

A difficult part is the hook that connects the toggle to the main spring. This hook needed quite a bit of encouraging to get going again, but is fully functional now.

I must say that my respect for these weapons as well as the trust in them has grown after this experiment.

Bill Jensen · 12-31-2004, 11:01 AM

Here are some bigger Before pictures:

http://home.earthlink.net/~debbymayb...gerBigLeft.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~debbymayb...erBigRight.jpg

I have soaked the Luger for 2 days in Liquid Wrench. Last night I was able to free up the toggle and middle link, but the middle link broke at the joint where it joins the forward bolt link. I tried to get the bolt to break free but could not. I will try some more today. The grip area is falling apart from the impacts since there was little remaining metal after the rust was removed.

I have been working an hour and managed to move the bolt back 1/2" but it is now stuck there. The extractor is freed up, the spring still works to snap it back and I see the letters "ELADEN" on it. Magazine catch is free. Grips are taking a beating since they are so weak. Recoil lever free too. Soaking again in Liquid Wrench.

After 5 hours of soaking, the bolt slides free. Now I can begin to see inside it. I am having great difficulty freeing the receiver from the frame. Any suggestions? I can't break the rust seal.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Vlim · 01-01-2005, 10:23 AM

Hi Bill,

Try to work on the receiver from behind. You may get a small screwdriver or wedge between the frame and the bottom part of the receiver, just beside the 'ears'. Take care not to damage the center part of the rear end of the frame. That's a fragile bit.

Also, take time to relax. You can really get carried away while working on something that's stuck. Just put it down for a few minutes, relax and then try again. I speak from experience

The bolt may be stuck behind the sear bar. You may want to try and free up the sear bar so the bolt can slide out. Also, is the ejector spring still in place? Or maybe hold-open spring is stuck in the upper (blocking) position.

the gunman · 01-01-2005, 03:43 PM

Hi gerben great job getting that apart. did not think it was possible.

Ron Smith · 01-01-2005, 04:57 PM

Hi Gerben, Now you can oil it up and take it out and shoot it.

Ron

Vlim · 01-02-2005, 07:05 AM

Ron,

Excellent idea! The holes in the barrel should work as some sort of compensator, making targeting without a front sight really easy...

Bill Jensen · 01-02-2005, 11:40 PM

Dear Mr. Vlimmeren,

After about 4 hours of working, I have freed up the receiver from the frame, bolt, toggles, and many more parts. Hitting it with the wedge did the trick. plus a massive strike on the tip of the barrel to crack the rust, and allow the liquid wrench to soak in. The parts slide freely now.

The next is the firing pin, but it is very corroded, and may not ever come free.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Vlim · 01-03-2005, 12:29 PM

Bill,

Excellent work! I agree that getting the firing pin out will be somewhat of a challenge, but if the tip is still distinguishable, as well as the side of the pin you have a good chance.

Try to get a detailed photograph of the disassembled pistol when you're ready!

Bill Jensen · 01-03-2005, 01:03 PM

I am pleased with my progress, and it is a lot of fun bringing the rusty luger back from its earthbound grave.

Here is a picture of some of the parts so far. The firing pin tip is intact, and so is the protrusion off the side. It is in Naval Jelly right now to remove the heavy rust that is on it. I'll attempt to free it up tonight.

Couldn't have gotten this far without all the great help I have gotten from you all.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Bill Jensen · 01-06-2005, 02:21 PM

In the process of restoring the rusty Luger and the trommel found with it. Here's a picture.

Vlim · 01-07-2005, 12:53 PM

Love the trommel!

It still amazes me to see everything looking like this after 80+ years under ground....

Bill Jensen · 01-07-2005, 01:03 PM

Hi there,

The trommel is rusted so that the external markings are gone. I was able to get the trommel open and look inside. Apparently there was no serial number stamped on the outside of the plate, because there is no impression of such stamps visible from the inside. I have seen the interior of 2 trommels, and they have impressions of the outside number stampings. This is unusual to not have numbers on both sides of the Trommel.

Apparently the trommel was all fired, but left in the wound and locked position. The mainspring snapped after all these years of added tension. I am very happy with it. It is a Type II, but an early version without the 2 reinforcing rings, and a 1" washer instead. Have not seen one like it before.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Vlim · 01-07-2005, 01:18 PM

Hi Bill,

That's what I like about dig finds. They are like time capsules and can sometimes settle old disputes (or generate fresh ones

).

12-29-2004, 09:49 AM	#21
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Bill, This looks like a job for a 20 LB sledge hanner. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-30-2004, 02:03 PM	#23
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The techniques used are quite simple and mostly consist of: -Patience -A large hammer (really) -Lots and lost of WD40 and gun oil. -A fine bladed knife that was used to cut out the rust from between tightfitting parts. It's like a big puzzle, trying to free up parts, getting one part to move slightly in order to free up another. The toggle was freed up by placing a large bolt all the way through the barrel until it touched the front of the breech (where the firing pin normally sticks out). You may want to drill a hole in the bolt (or metal pin) so it clears the firing pin tip. Place the pistol firmly in a benchrest (wood blocks/cloth for protection) and gently free up the toggle by tapping the toggle backwards. Every time you manage to break a part free a little bit, coat whole bugger in oil and cut the muck out using the small blade (like a standard hobby knife). Once in a while, push back the toggle assembly to free up the action, then repeat. Pry away as much debris from all nooks and crannies as you can. My pistol had been in a fire and the receiver had deformed, making the task somewhat more difficult. Getting the takedown lever out was the most difficult part as I first had to get the toggle back far enough for the lever to rotate. Try tapping along the bottom of the knobs, combined with tapping against the rod in the barrel to free up the action. I got the knobs slightly freed up by inserting a flat blade screwdriver between the frame and the knobs, using the screwdriver as a lever. All in all it was a fun project and it cost me quite some hours to get it separated, hindered by the (spent) case that was still in the chamber. The trigger guard sadly came off, but it was hanging by a few threads already. Locktited it in place for display purposes. These are the parts I eventually managed to separate: Please note that the full safety catch was also freed and is functional. The ejector spring is in a surprisingly good condition, as is the sear bar. The firing pin somewhat blew up in this pistol, so nothing but some debris was left. Most of the pin is still stuck inside the front toggle. The trigger is still functional and even the trigger spring could be identified. Last edited by Vlim; 12-30-2004 at 02:32 PM.

12-30-2004, 06:57 PM	#24
Bill Jensen User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Mr. Vlimmeren Thank you for letting me know how you managed to free up the rusted parts. It gives me encouragement that the parts in my rusty Artillery might be able to be freed up. It has been soaking in Liquid Wrench penetrant and rust softener. Did you notice that the rails were rusted, where they fitted closely together? Did you tap on these rails to loosen or break the rust? How hard did you have to hit the threaded rod? How long did it take to first get the toggle to move? When you mean knock the knobs backward, do you mean upwards? I love your pictures, and congratulate you on getting it apart, it represents a lot of work ! I will keep you posted on any progress I have this weekend on freeing any parts. Apparently mine is more rusty, but does not exhibit the deep pitting that your does. It was buried in alkaline chalk for 80+ years, and the wooden grips survived. I will clean up the trommel that was found with this gun, once it arrives from France. Sincerely, Bill Jensen California. Last edited by Bill Jensen; 12-30-2004 at 07:12 PM.

12-31-2004, 11:01 AM	#26
Bill Jensen User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are some bigger Before pictures: http://home.earthlink.net/~debbymayb...gerBigLeft.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/~debbymayb...erBigRight.jpg I have soaked the Luger for 2 days in Liquid Wrench. Last night I was able to free up the toggle and middle link, but the middle link broke at the joint where it joins the forward bolt link. I tried to get the bolt to break free but could not. I will try some more today. The grip area is falling apart from the impacts since there was little remaining metal after the rust was removed. I have been working an hour and managed to move the bolt back 1/2" but it is now stuck there. The extractor is freed up, the spring still works to snap it back and I see the letters "ELADEN" on it. Magazine catch is free. Grips are taking a beating since they are so weak. Recoil lever free too. Soaking again in Liquid Wrench. After 5 hours of soaking, the bolt slides free. Now I can begin to see inside it. I am having great difficulty freeing the receiver from the frame. Any suggestions? I can't break the rust seal. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Last edited by Bill Jensen; 12-31-2004 at 10:35 PM.

01-01-2005, 04:57 PM	#29
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Gerben, Now you can oil it up and take it out and shoot it. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-29-2004, 10:04 AM	#22
Bill Jensen User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi there, I have a 5 pound sledge, but will try not to mar the "finish" by using hardwood to pound with. I was going to get creative with thermal expansions and liquid nitrogen or dry ice with mild leating, but I can't find a source of the cold stuff. Heating and regular ice did not help. I have managed to free up some minor components. Its a fun project though, even if I can't get any parts to move. I love a challenge! Sincerely, Bill Jensen

12-31-2004, 08:15 AM	#25
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Bill, actually, the moving parts including the rail were in a pretty good condition. Cutting through the rust with a small blade helped to get the mechanism going as the only thing blocking the mechanism is the expanding rust and usually it's not much rust. You can pry the knobs upwards and rearwards at the same time, working the toggle loose bit by bit. I also did a lot of mallet tapping on all parts of the pistol, just to break the parts free. What also worked well, was inserting a small blade screwdriver between the ears and the toggle, slightly moving them apart. This again broke the rust and it gave space for the blade of a cutting knife, so I could peen out even more rust. It also provided extra space for oil to soak in even deeper. The toggle moved rearwards after about a week of work. The receiver had to be forced out because of the fire damage, which warped the receiver so it had difficulty clearing the 'ears'. Remember, I first had to move the receiver rearwards in order to free up the takedown switch and the side plate (which came off pretty easily). Then I had to force the receiver forward again for further dismantling. You'll probably loose the rear end of the firing pin when you start freeing the toggle. It helps to get the sear bar out before you start releasing the toggle any further. But of course, this means the side plate must be removed first.....Your artillery already has it's takedown lever and sideplate missing, so that'll make things slightly easier. A difficult part is the hook that connects the toggle to the main spring. This hook needed quite a bit of encouraging to get going again, but is fully functional now. I must say that my respect for these weapons as well as the trust in them has grown after this experiment.

01-01-2005, 10:23 AM	#27
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Bill, Try to work on the receiver from behind. You may get a small screwdriver or wedge between the frame and the bottom part of the receiver, just beside the 'ears'. Take care not to damage the center part of the rear end of the frame. That's a fragile bit. Also, take time to relax. You can really get carried away while working on something that's stuck. Just put it down for a few minutes, relax and then try again. I speak from experience The bolt may be stuck behind the sear bar. You may want to try and free up the sear bar so the bolt can slide out. Also, is the ejector spring still in place? Or maybe hold-open spring is stuck in the upper (blocking) position.

01-01-2005, 03:43 PM	#28
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Hi gerben great job getting that apart. did not think it was possible.

01-02-2005, 07:05 AM	#30
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ron, Excellent idea! The holes in the barrel should work as some sort of compensator, making targeting without a front sight really easy...

01-02-2005, 11:40 PM	#31
Bill Jensen User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Mr. Vlimmeren, After about 4 hours of working, I have freed up the receiver from the frame, bolt, toggles, and many more parts. Hitting it with the wedge did the trick. plus a massive strike on the tip of the barrel to crack the rust, and allow the liquid wrench to soak in. The parts slide freely now. The next is the firing pin, but it is very corroded, and may not ever come free. Sincerely, Bill Jensen

01-03-2005, 12:29 PM	#32
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Bill, Excellent work! I agree that getting the firing pin out will be somewhat of a challenge, but if the tip is still distinguishable, as well as the side of the pin you have a good chance. Try to get a detailed photograph of the disassembled pistol when you're ready!

01-03-2005, 01:03 PM	#33
Bill Jensen User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am pleased with my progress, and it is a lot of fun bringing the rusty luger back from its earthbound grave. Here is a picture of some of the parts so far. The firing pin tip is intact, and so is the protrusion off the side. It is in Naval Jelly right now to remove the heavy rust that is on it. I'll attempt to free it up tonight. Couldn't have gotten this far without all the great help I have gotten from you all. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Attached Thumbnails

01-06-2005, 02:21 PM	#34
Bill Jensen User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In the process of restoring the rusty Luger and the trommel found with it. Here's a picture. Attached Thumbnails

01-07-2005, 12:53 PM	#35
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Love the trommel! It still amazes me to see everything looking like this after 80+ years under ground....

01-07-2005, 01:03 PM	#36
Bill Jensen User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi there, The trommel is rusted so that the external markings are gone. I was able to get the trommel open and look inside. Apparently there was no serial number stamped on the outside of the plate, because there is no impression of such stamps visible from the inside. I have seen the interior of 2 trommels, and they have impressions of the outside number stampings. This is unusual to not have numbers on both sides of the Trommel. Apparently the trommel was all fired, but left in the wound and locked position. The mainspring snapped after all these years of added tension. I am very happy with it. It is a Type II, but an early version without the 2 reinforcing rings, and a 1" washer instead. Have not seen one like it before. Sincerely, Bill Jensen

01-07-2005, 01:18 PM	#37
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Bill, That's what I like about dig finds. They are like time capsules and can sometimes settle old disputes (or generate fresh ones ).