Need some expert opinions please!

[cirelaw]

Thank You John for your magazine clarification! I will post the entire rig in the morning including the original Krieghoff manual that came with the gun~~~Eric

[cirelaw]

I took These this morning~~

[cirelaw]

I took These this morning~~

[El Syd]

Eric - that rig is absolutely beautiful. Thanks for the pix. I'm over here drooling!

John - thanks for your input on the mags - whether they are aluminum colored as Eric's or blued as you stated.

Does anybody have any input on the Black Widow that I posted at the beginning of this thread? I think I'm going to wait a while on a Kreighoff as the BWs don't seem to be quite so expensive and rare.

You guys on this forum have certainly been great. Thanks for all of the comments, pix and advice. All the best, syd

[ac4142]

if you buy it you can't go wrong. black widows are extremely sought after lugers. the one on legacy is very nice. why don't you call them up and talk to tom? tell him what you're looking for. he will work with you.nobody has a better return policy than they do, not that you'd need it. adriaan

[guns3545]

Syd,

Well, I looked at the Mauser P.08 rig on the Legacy site.

Here are some comments:

1. The gun is a Mauser made, Model P.08, manufactured at their Oberndorf facility in late 1941, November time frame. Maybe a bit earlier. Just an estimate. It appears properly proofed and serialized, and being in the y-block it certainly was made in the time frame when they were using Black Bakelite grip panels.

2. The two magazines are typical Type 6 magazines manufactured under Haenel license by Manteuffel &Co in Zella Mehlis and commonly issued with late production 41 byfs. As a point of interest, the firm used forced labor from the Froehlichen Mann Labor Camp. And, if I may be granted some liberty with the German language, we therefore had "Happy Men making magazines for the Man Devil".

3. The holster appears used but righteous, made by Walter Schurmann & Co. Lederwarenfabrik, in the town of Bielefeld, sometime in 1942 and is properly marked with a P.08 stamp. As you could already tell, because of the date it probably was not issued with the gun but is certainly period correct.

4. Can't say much about the tool. Really need to have it in hand and listen to it.

Bottom line though is that you need to trust your supplier who in this case is Tom Whiteman. He is good people.

Hope this helps.

John

[El Syd]

Adriaan - thanks for your input. I'm glad nothing glares out at you and you speak highly of Tom Whiteman as the rest of this forum does.

John - thank you as well for your detailed description of the pistol, mags, tool and particularly the holster. You just can't get this info in a book. I bought "Lugers at Random" and they do not even mention Black Widows in it which seems kind of odd. But maybe back in the day it was published, the BWs were the "red headed step children at a family reunion" from what I've picked up in my readings on this forum.

Thanks again to everyone for their help. I'll give Tom a call and maybe we can get something worked out. Best to all, Syd

[4 Scale]

Lots of good advice in this thread.

I have heard "Black Widow" was a descriptive/marketing term coined by the late Luger dealer Ralph Schattuck to described salt blued Mauser Lugers with black bakelite grips/magazine bottoms. See FAQ for manufacture dates. I believe he popularized the term after the Lugers at Random book was published. Those Lugers have a decidedly dark appearance compared to generally earlier models. While I prefer the look of models that included strawed (light colored) parts and wooden grips, such as the gorgeous Kreighoff above, the beauty of collecting is you need only satisfy your own tastes.

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by El Syd

Adriaan - thanks for your input. I'm glad nothing glares out at you and you speak highly of Tom Whiteman as the rest of this forum does.

John - thank you as well for your detailed description of the pistol, mags, tool and particularly the holster. You just can't get this info in a book. I bought "Lugers at Random" and they do not even mention Black Widows in it which seems kind of odd. But maybe back in the day it was published, the BWs were the "red headed step children at a family reunion" from what I've picked up in my readings on this forum.

Thanks again to everyone for their help. I'll give Tom a call and maybe we can get something worked out. Best to all, Syd

Syd,

You are welcome.

You will not see the term Black Widow in older books. Some of the newer books use the term. This is because the term has absolutely no relevance to the manufacture of the P.08, or its usage in the field, or the unit to which it was assigned.

Therefore to the serious collector it has no relevance whatsoever. At best, it may be given a status as some sub-variation i.e. examples of late war Mauser production.

Don and Joop in the Mauser Parabellum acknowledge the term ascribing it to the USA Based Marketing and Selling Machine in order to hype its characteristics and therefore be able to charge more for a standard issue gun, made late in the war so its finish was poor due to less polishing; its magazines and grip panels made of plastic to save costs and increase sturdiness (the walnut grip panels were very susceptible to cracking in the field).

AND IT WORKED!! Sadly they were successful beyond their dreams and hundreds of 41 byf pistols with one matching or perhaps a non-matching correct magazine were converted to Black Widows. I have even seen guns made before the byf era "converted" to Black Widows even though the black grip panels and black bottom magazines did not exist before 1941. And people buy them, pay exorbitant prices and believe they have a rare pistol. Or one used by the dreaded Gestapo or the murderous SS.

And it goes on today and honest 1941s, and to a lesser extent, 1942 donor guns lose their collector value and are lost forever as "original/correct" examples of WWII production. They don't have to worry about grips matching. No worries about matching serial numbers on the magazines. In an instant, they create a fully matching rig with gun, 2 "correct' magazine and a period correct tool, a holster picked up at a gun show. Instant complete and matching rig and because it is a "Black Widow" sold for $1000-1500 more than they could get for the honest gun.

Okay, okay, I'll stop my rant and get off my soap box. But serious collectors take their responsibilities seriously. We are custodians of pieces of history to be preserved and passed down to following generations. We should not be manufacturing pieces of history, passing it off as something more valuable or mysterious or whatever.

JMVHO. Sorry if I have offended anyone. And... sorry for the long post. But if just one person reads this, gets a little more educated, and understands what a Black Widow really is; or IS NOT, then I will have done my job.

John

[alvin]

If collect one Luger, byf 41 42 is a great choice. In many C&R categories, very early variation and very late variation have special position. In Luger context, Luger 1900 and byf 41 or 42 are in this position. Just like conehammer and Model 1930 in C96 context. There are Krieghoff variations being even later, but KH is special interest item, not as generic as Mauser, I would think KH's position in Luger domain is not unlike Astra 900 in broom's domain.

[cirelaw]

John, I appreciate you devotion, vigor and style of writing. Go at it!! I wish more of us would express their knowledge and share with us all. Knowledge is useless unless made available! Please continue posting no matter how long or often as the lugers deserve the best from us all! There are no answers without questions! Eric

[wlyon]

I can only hope and wish that the term " black widow" would vanish forever from the luger world. We as collectors need to quit using this sales pitch only term. Bill

[cirelaw]

For what its worth~~http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/...ic-pistol.aspx

[cirelaw]

A Video On The So-called 'Black Widow' Video ~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06y-fwN_xBQ

[cirelaw]

I agree Bill but its how its been labeled!!! I think its degrading! Does the term only apply to Mausers?

[CAP Black]

There is an old adage that goes something like this: Some people are good at selling the steak while others may be great at selling just the sizzle.
We are some like the first and some like the latter.
We should each know where we stand; but still appreciate others' positions.
Thanks
Jack

[cirelaw]

I found an article that also refers to that term!http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-told-pistols/

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by wlyon

I can only hope and wish that the term " black widow" would vanish forever from the luger world. We as collectors need to quit using this sales pitch only term. Bill

Bill

I agree with you; to me calling (for marketing reasons) those P08 "Black Widows" is a bit like calling "1906/24" what really is a W+F Bern 1906
I'm afraid these are some of those deep rooted bad habits that will be quite difficult to eradicate.

Sergio