Otto Sindel holster

[Olle]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

No disrespect, but I think one of the reasons you suspect a fake is the condition. Olle..Let me assure you, you could not be more wrong in thinking this. I have seen and handled MANY mint condition original holsters and owned many more. My thoughts on this one are purely technical and practical. I am not at all awed by it's condition.
On the other hand you are also correct. I suspect ANY holster in this condition simply for the reason that in 1941 the Germans not only made holsters but used them, NEEDED them. While it is possible to survive in this condition..it is rare enough to be suspicious on the face of it.
My analysis and the opinion of others that I respect point to something wrong. This holster is NOT all it should be. Of that I am certain.

Ed, No..cotton is a natural material and will not glow like synthetics do. The thread on Olle's holster is hairy where it shouldn't be. Ends sticking out here and there. Either it's cotton or it's linen but linen only gets this way after being very wet. This holster shows no evidence of having been wet..Dry linen just doesn't do this.

Just let me know if you need more pictures. Olle, yes! Can you get a closeup of the inside back panel where the stitching for the belt loops are? This is another area that will tell me more..
Thanks..I appreciate it!

Jerry,

I don't doubt your judgement one bit, I just want to make sure that we get the "too good to be true" factor out of the way. Not too long ago, I bought a stone cold mint 3-lever slotted Radom VIS P.35 for $500, just because the seller and I both thought it looked way too good to be an original finish. Once I got it home so I could disassemble it and inspect it more closely, I found that it was not too good to be true. Big mistake on his behalf, but good for me.

Getting a good shot of the inside will be a bugger, but I'll try my best.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Olle, Yes, I understand completely. Most people who know me know that I tell it like I see it. I have no reason not to. Like a scientist I look for details that will lead me to answers. If I am wrong I will be the first to say so. As painful as the process is..it's what we have. Thanks for your help..like you say, a hands on inspection is always better but often enough pictures work. I think back not too long ago actually and this kind of discourse would have been impossible or take months!

Getting a good shot of the inside will be a bugger..all I really need is a clear shot of ONE stitching area. I want to see how the stitching has been done. Way before 1941 the German Saddlers left the stitching lay flat on the surface. Pounded flat after installation it was fairly safe from chafing. Later they went to gouging a line to bury the stitching somewhat..keeping it away from damage. Then they went all the way and the belt loop stitching was completely hidden away under a slit in the front panel. I would expect by 1941 the stitching to be completely hidden..but I see some in one photo you posted. A closer look will confirm.

[wlyon]

Jerry/John. Thanks for the kind words. I do not profess to be a holster expert. But I do have holsteritis. This one bothers me enough that as I said, I would not buy it. Just one of those feelings. Might be a big mistake on my part but I have been there before. Jerry you da man. What ever you say I believe. I do not believe anyone has seen and worked on the numbers you have. Will be interesting to see how the story ends. Bill

[Olle]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Olle, Yes, I understand completely. Most people who know me know that I tell it like I see it. I have no reason not to. Like a scientist I look for details that will lead me to answers. If I am wrong I will be the first to say so. As painful as the process is..it's what we have. Thanks for your help..like you say, a hands on inspection is always better but often enough pictures work. I think back not too long ago actually and this kind of discourse would have been impossible or take months!

Getting a good shot of the inside will be a bugger..all I really need is a clear shot of ONE stitching area. I want to see how the stitching has been done. Way before 1941 the German Saddlers left the stitching lay flat on the surface. Pounded flat after installation it was fairly safe from chafing. Later they went to gouging a line to bury the stitching somewhat..keeping it away from damage. Then they went all the way and the belt loop stitching was completely hidden away under a slit in the front panel. I would expect by 1941 the stitching to be completely hidden..but I see some in one photo you posted. A closer look will confirm.

Jerry,

I sure don't have a problem with an open discussion. I usually call a spade a spade, don't know how many times I have been it trouble for it. Have even lost a few good jobs because of it.

So before we resort to a C-14 test, here's a couple of shots showing the top seams of the belt straps. I can't see that they have been pounded flat, but the ends of the threads are hidden, the stitching is tight and you can't feel much of it when you run your finger across the seams.

There is actually one thing that bothers me about the idea of this being a reproduction (or fake, if you will)... The whole idea of a reproduction is to produce something that resembles the original, but at a fraction of the cost. I'm fully aware of the low labor cost in the far east, but how much would it cost to reproduce something like this and at this level? You would have to do a lot of research, then get the right kind of leather, the right weight, color and quality, reproduce the hardware etc, etc and that all adds up very quickly. Factor in the shipping, middle man cost, marketing etc, and it leaves you wondering if it really makes sense to make a no holds barred reproduction of this kind of holster. The fakers usually go for the big bucks, so this feels like faking $1 bills.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Olle..Yes, in a PC World the truth is the first casualty. I hear what you're saying. I will say this however..the last mint holster I sold went for $8-900. If this one you have were in actuality original beyond doubt I would expect it to fetch close to $600 minimum. That being said..this holster makes me a believer then kicks me in the nads! The inside belt loop stitches are amateurish. With no doubt in my mind I can call them bad. This late in the game, 1941, Otto Sindel was a Premier Luger holster maker. They made some of the finest holsters the Germans could produce and they did it right. The stitching you took excellent photo's of is simply laying right on the surface. I don't know what this holster is or where it came from or who made it but I do know what it isn't. There is NO WAY this is German original period 1941. These last two photo's are the nail in the coffin for me.
I have said it many times before..I find no joy in these pronouncements. Being the bearer of these opinions often makes me unpopular. I would much rather declare it is a rare and valuable original..but in this case unfortunately I don't think so.

I am not the end all of experts. It's just an opinion from a humble student. I DO welcome dissenting opinions..I would love to hear what others may think.

[wlyon]

The master has spoken. I agree on the inside loop threads. I realize there are some 41 holsters with the full manufacturers name. However codes were introduced in 1940? For the record Otto Sindel made many military holsters and was not limited to Police holsters. I have owned a couple of these. I will say whomever made this did good work. It is hard to fool the master (Jerry). Bill

[DonVoigt]

Just an observation on the "cost" analysis, these reproduction holsters are sold for $25 post paid on ebay, and the one I posted the link to- with a little effor-t could "pass" for original to all but an expert, IMO.

So the "cost/benefit isn't there" analysis doesn't hold water for me.

I'll defer to Jerry on the construction analysis; maybe he can look at the links posted for similarities to the known reproductions.

[ChannelIsles]

Ebay description - ORIGINAL WWII GERMAN 1941 POLICE P08 LUGER VERY RARE WAFFENAMT HOLSTER

Here's the 1941 Otto Sindel I took long consideration over before I bought. Suffice to say when a magazine couldn't be slid in and the killer as I couldn't fit a luger in & flap down was the decider. It went straight back as a return. Here's the images, Brendan.

[DonVoigt]

Yours and the others I've seen on line have a pretty pitiful Eagle.

I just picked up an auction buy this am. What should it have but a 1938 Otto Sindel holster.

I'll do some pictures and start a new thread with this for sure repro.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Brendan, The holster you show and the one Olle has could be brothers! There are MANY amazing similarities. BOTH have the incorrect interior belt loop stitching..It looks like these were both made by the same entity.

[wlyon]

I am sure everyone knows this, but here is the inside loop threads Jerry is talking about.

1. Thread exposed
2. Thread exposed but flattened
3. Grooved thread
4. Hidden in slots

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bill, FANTASTIC photo's! This helps a great deal, thank you.

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Bill, perfect examples!

Channelisles, spot on, thanks for your pictures.

[Olle]

Jerry,

I sure appreciate the detailed analysis and the explanations, now I just have to bring it back to the owner and tell him that I'm not selling this one.

I must say that it had me completely fooled. The craftsmanship is outstanding, the leather quality is great, and the aging (including the fine spider cracking) is 100% convincing. This is one of the reasons why I only collect the guns. They could be refinished, but at least you can be sure that they are not modern day reproductions!

[wlyon]

Olle
Thank you for starting this thread. I am sure we all learned something. You probably saved someone $600+. Thanks. Bill

[lugerholsterrepair]

Olle, did you ever check to see how a pistol and magazine fit in this holster?

[Olle]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Olle, did you ever check to see how a pistol and magazine fit in this holster?

Yep, tried a gun and a magazine last night, and the holster fits both. The gun only needs some light pressure to get it all the way home, and comes up with a light tug on the strap. The mag pocket was a bit tighter (seems to be pressed out of shape a bit from storage), but I believe this holster would fit like a glove after some break-in. Just adds to the mystery, doesn't it?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Olle..Just adds to the mystery, doesn't it? OK..Thanks. So close..yet so far.

[DonVoigt]

Being the village idiot when it comes to holsters(remember I baked one!, I'm kind of liking Ollie's for real.

Main reason is the ageing; I don't see how this could be done to duplicate the points Ollie mentioned that are cracked or spidered; and the closure stud sure looks aged to me.

It does look too good to be true, and does not have the expected attributes that Jerry points out; and I wholly agree with Bill that I would not pay much more than repro price for it,
but it does nag at me.....

[ChannelIsles]

Here's another 1941 Otto Sindel Police holster currently on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-GERMAN-...YAAOSwV-RXEt7p

Over stamp on the manufacturer and date - I've not seen that before. Coming on the back of 2 same condition holsters available over the last year - Threads exposed again on a late holster - leaves me cold.