Luger Target Trigger Modification

[sheepherder]

I also would be interested in the pics/article.

[mrerick]

If you Email me the jpegs, I can create a compressed PDF file.

Marc

[Ron Wood]

I suppose after 28 years no one will get their knickers in a wad if I post .jpg images of the Shooting Times article on trigger adjustment. They are a bit fuzzy but I think they are OK for folks that have enough gunsmithing skills. If you can't grasp what the procedure is, you probably shouldn't be messing with the gun in the first place. I assume absolutely no liability for any modifications to any Luger using this aricle...it is provided for information purposes only and should not be attempted by anyone other than a qualified and licensed gunsmith.

[Vlim]

Good article.

My 1937 S/42 had a very, very strong trigger spring in it, which forced me to build up so much pressure that I would twist the gun slightly sideways and downwards. Quite annoying. A simple fix was the installation of a softer (Swiss 06/29) trigger spring. Made a world of difference.

So before bringing out the drills, taps and screws, try the simple approach first

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I suppose after 28 years no one will get their knickers in a wad if I post .jpg images of the Shooting Times article...

Way to go, Ron! Take a walk on the wild side...

*************************************************************

In that article's first page, the upper pic of a Luger barrel...What model/make Luger is that??? Is that the Mauser (with a 6" barrel) that the author was referring to???

[Ron Wood]

I should have posted that after I took a nap...it has been 38 years since the article was published.

[Blastattack]

Excellent! Thank you! Any chance you can Re-post this article in a fresh thread and have it stickied? That would be invaluable for all current and future members.

[Michael Zeleny]

Making a Luger trigger mimic that of an M1911 is a fool's errand. In effect, this method eliminates the first stage of the trigger action that was designed and built in a two stage pattern. It is an unsafe procedure that cannot be recommended under any circumstances.

[earlyluger]

Saved the article just because I save info and data against future need. I do not think I will try this mod, it is not like I can replace things on a matching serial numbered 1900 model. But good stuff to know.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Hugh

by SLIGHTLY bending the front tang of the trigger outward and/or VERY SLIGHTLY bending the trigger lip that engages the trigger lever downward.

Someone had done this to my 29/70 Mauser. I carefully straightened it out to regain the famous mile-long pull!

[Blastattack]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Making a Luger trigger mimic that of an M1911 is a fool's errand. In effect, this method eliminates the first stage of the trigger action that was designed and built in a two stage pattern. It is an unsafe procedure that cannot be recommended under any circumstances.

I challenge that statement. What evidence do you have to support any of that?

I would hardly qualify the Luger as having a "two stage" trigger. A proper two stage trigger divides the total pull between the two stages, requiring a greater and longer pull in the first stage, and requiring a shorter but much lighter (not to mention crisp) pull in the second. The Luger's pull consists of taking the slack out f the mechanism, which takes a couple ounces, and then the full 7-8lbs in the last bit of movement. I also fail to see how such modifications are unsafe when done properly. If the instructions are followed to a T and the user does not over adjust the trigger to break on a hair, the pistol should work perfectly fine and be 100% safe. I'm sure Herbert Werle does a very similar procedure to this, and he seems to enjoy a very good reputation, both here and abroad.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Blastattack

I challenge that statement. What evidence do you have to support any of that?

I would hardly qualify the Luger as having a "two stage" trigger. A proper two stage trigger divides the total pull between the two stages, requiring a greater and longer pull in the first stage, and requiring a shorter but much lighter (not to mention crisp) pull in the second. The Luger's pull consists of taking the slack out f the mechanism, which takes a couple ounces, and then the full 7-8lbs in the last bit of movement. I also fail to see how such modifications are unsafe when done properly. If the instructions are followed to a T and the user does not over adjust the trigger to break on a hair, the pistol should work perfectly fine and be 100% safe. I'm sure Herbert Werle does a very similar procedure to this, and he seems to enjoy a very good reputation, both here and abroad.

Please Google "Druckpunkt Parabellum".

[Blastattack]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Please Google "Druckpunkt Parabellum".

I'm not sure I understand. Clearly the Swiss devised a method to improve the trigger pull of their Lugers. I cannot and will not argue the effectiveness and relative merits of their modification. However, that does not explain why the method described in the article is inherently wrong or dangerous. It simply seems like another way to skin a cat. If done properly, with great care and attention, as well as the proper tools, I cannot see how it would be any less effective than what the Swiss devised.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Blastattack

I'm not sure I understand. Clearly the Swiss devised a method to improve the trigger pull of their Lugers. I cannot and will not argue the effectiveness and relative merits of their modification. However, that does not explain why the method described in the article is inherently wrong or dangerous. It simply seems like another way to skin a cat. If done properly, with great care and attention, as well as the proper tools, I cannot see how it would be any less effective than what the Swiss devised.

Both DWM and W+F Parabellum factory manuals identify the trigger pull as possessed of a Druckpunkt, i.e. two staged. We could go on to talk sear engagement geometry, but I'm quite happy to rest my case on this appeal to the bona fide supreme Luger authority. The distinct stages are especially noticeable on Swiss M1929 Lugers.

[Blastattack]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Both DWM and W+F Parabellum factory manuals identify the trigger pull as possessed of a Druckpunkt, i.e. two staged. We could go on to talk sear engagement geometry, but I'm quite happy to rest my case on this appeal to the bona fide supreme Luger authority. The distinct stages are especially noticeable on Swiss M1929 Lugers.

I'm just saying that in my limited experience with Luger the trigger has not resembled anything close to a two stage pull. Maybe it was and I just didn't feel it, I don't know. It just felt heavy, period. Regardless, you have not even attempted to defend your original statement that "It is an unsafe procedure that cannot be recommended under any circumstances". How is it unsafe and why would you not recommend it? If properly executed by a competent machinist, what specific procedure renders the modifications unsafe?As to the elimination of the first stage; so what? Just because something is or was designed as such, does not make it right or better than anything else. Why can't a well tuned Luger trigger emulate that of a well tuned 1911? Unless you plan on illustrating why these modifications are dangerous, I see no reason for you to bother mentioning it.

I'm more than happy to listen to a counter argument, but arguing something based on status quo simply does not fly.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Blastattack

Why can't a well tuned Luger trigger emulate that of a well tuned 1911?

Because a striker fired pistol requires a broader safety margin in sear engagement, than a hammer fired one.

[G.T.]

take up isn't undesirable or critical, and as mentioned earlier, probably only a few ounces... probalby need not be addressed for any purpose?? Over travel is probably not wanted.. especially excessive.. I'm pretty sure most lugers don't suffer from this anyway.. most of the ones i have had broke clean at the far end of the trigger travel anyway... But, that being said... Pull weight reduction is probably important, and also a crisp sear break, which probably will require some part modification. ...???... That's where one needs to dwell... two distinct stages are necessary in a Luger.. Not really a two stage trigger... ,,, Want to spend some time, it can be done.. Probably as good as any in a one off situation.. Hard to beat the 1911 in this arena. But, I happen to like Lugers.....Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by G.T.

take up isn't undesirable or critical, and as mentioned earlier, probably only a few ounces... probalby need not be addressed for any purpose?? Over travel is probably not wanted.. especially excessive.. I'm pretty sure most lugers don't suffer from this anyway.. most of the ones i have had broke clean at the far end of the trigger travel anyway... But, that being said... Pull weight reduction is probably important, and also a crisp sear break, which probably will require some part modification. ...???... That's where one needs to dwell... two distinct stages are necessary in a Luger.. Not really a two stage trigger... ,,, Want to spend some time, it can be done.. Probably as good as any in a one off situation.. Hard to beat the 1911 in this arena. But, I happen to like Lugers.....Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

I am not sure what you are saying, but in the terminology of the article under discussion, the mutually bearing surfaces of the trigger bar and the firing pin are cut at an angle so as to interlock, for reasons of safety. If anyone here is foolish and reckless enough to try this modification at home, I'm willing to bet that I can fire his modified Luger without touching its trigger.

[G.T.]

Hi Michael... well, to keep it short.. a'lot can be done in just the sear notch location.. keeping it a 90% as designed, polished, build up.. cut back, shortened, lengthened, what ever suits the unique demands that each Luger would require.. I'm not saying is SHOULD be done.... I'm just saying it could be done... And, of course, a luger with .020" slop between the cannon ass'y and frame would not be a cantidiate for this type of work!!! ...... As mentioned earlier.. it just takes a crap pot full of parts, and time, and money, and all three escape me! ... .. I've seen it before.. in just about evey thing i ever tried to compete in.. ....Best to you Michael, til...lat'r...GT

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Michael... well, to keep it short.. a'lot can be done in just the sear notch location.. keeping it a 90% as designed, polished, build up.. cut back, shortened, lengthened, what ever suits the unique demands that each Luger would require.. I'm not saying is SHOULD be done.... I'm just saying it could be done... And, of course, a luger with .020" slop between the cannon ass'y and frame would not be a cantidiate for this type of work!!! ...... As mentioned earlier.. it just takes a crap pot full of parts, and time, and money, and all three escape me! ... .. I've seen it before.. in just about evey thing i ever tried to compete in.. ....Best to you Michael, til...lat'r...GT

I won't argue with anything of that, Gerald. All I can say is that the best Luger trigger pull I have experienced is on a factory target pistol with a stock sear geometry. Here is a record I made with a Lyman electronic trigger gauge, of trigger pull averaged over 10 measurements:

• 7.63x25mm Borchardt C93 SN 1774: 2.59kg
• 9mm Para Krieghoff P08 SN 3249: 3.48kg.
• 7.65mm Para W+F P06/1929 National Match SN 59951: 2.64kg
• 7.65mm Para W+F P06/1929 National Match SN 65721: 2.15kg
• 7.65mm Para W+F P06/1929 SN 71644: 3.80kg
• 7.65mm Para W+F P06/1929 SN 77493: 2.57kg
• 9mm Para SIG P49 SN A204931: 2.88kg
• 9mm Para SIG P49 SN A156213: 2.90kg
• 9mm Para SIG P49 SN A107159: 2.75kg
• 9mm Para SIG P49 SN A105553: 2.56kg
• 9mm Para SIG P210-2 SN P74064: 1.86kg
• 9mm Para SIG P210-1 SN P77209: 1.94kg
• 7.65mm Para SIG P210-6HF SN P79103: 1.24kg
• 9mm Para SIG P210-6HF SN P79136: 1.82kg
• 9mm Para SIG P210-6HF SN P79608: 1.20kg
• 9mm Para SIG P210-6HF SN P79609: 1.23kg
• 9mm Para SIG P210-2 SN P79980: 1.67kg
• 9mm Para SIG P210-6 SN P86618: 1.78kg

All are double pull, with a very crisp stage transition (Druckpunkt). You can tell which guns have been resprung.