1917 Death Head - Page 2

Ron Wood · 01-25-2012, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

At least the Germans find it amusing

Me too.

sheepherder · 01-25-2012, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

The marking was done, according to German sources (including Kornmayer), for a US dealer by a German gunsmith...

What German gunsmith could resist 'improving' the amateurish graphics??? I contend that the goofy graphics prove it was not done by a German gunsmith...

(And we all know what perfectionists the Teutons are...)

alanint · 01-25-2012, 09:59 PM

I'm laughing too, but....

Would not all guns destined for us gullible, ignorant US collectors still require an import stamp??

Vlim · 01-25-2012, 10:01 PM

Not in those days

And then again, even today they manage to sneak unmarked pistols onto the US market from abroad. Imagine how easy the proces was when nobody really cared, back in the 50s and 60s?

Interarms, for example, was importing guns literally by the shiploads, offloading everything on their private docks. And they were just one of the importers.

alvin · 01-25-2012, 10:24 PM

As long as US collectors do not pay extra $$ for this skull more than a "1920" property stamp, it's OK.

===

Pay extra for a single instance is OK as well.

Nomadr · 01-25-2012, 10:27 PM

Just a thought. If a German gun smith did this job for the exporter, would they be smart enough to just put them on WWI era Lugers?

You would think you would see a few (If not many) post war and WWII Lugers with this DH marking also if the reason was to boost the value.

Bob

DavidJayUden · 01-25-2012, 10:38 PM

I look at that DH logo and see, not a skull and cross bones, but a shrunken head w/hair. And the "cross bones" could well be ears. It is a really pathetic characterization of a skull.
dju

alvin · 01-25-2012, 10:44 PM

Ron mentioned the skull was published in 1958. One possibility was the skull stamp being real on some guns. The German gunsmith mentioned by Vlim could study that article, and started his work in 1960, so he knew the shape, size, WWI etc. There is no conflict in timing.

Of course, general theory has nothing to do with this particular instance being real or not.

sheepherder · 01-26-2012, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab-bob

I remember reading a fascinating thread on this forum about the TK logo. There was a picture of a WW1 German officer with a insignia that matches the cartoon logo seen on some of these lugers. He was reportedly in one of the flamethrower units.

Flammenwerfer!!!

saab-bob · 01-26-2012, 09:27 PM

Thanks Postino
Great pic.
I see that is a heavy duty 2 man flamethrower unit.
It makes sense some of these specialized troops where unhappy with how the war ended. They joined the Freikorps to express their displeasure and took their TK insignias with them.
Would be interesting to see the style of the TK logo on one of the German WW1 rifles you mentioned.
Bob

sheepherder · 01-26-2012, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab-bob

Would be interesting to see the style of the TK logo on one of the German WW1 rifles you mentioned.
Bob

Bob, I can't remember now if the pics were here or at Jan's site...maybe someone else remembers??? The skull (and I think the lazy S) were in the same place; over the chamber...

I'm fascinated by the graphics style itself...'Cartoonish' was the term SIG2101 used; but if you do a Google Search for 'Pirate Flags' or 'Jolly Roger' you'll see that the skull & bones were pretty cartoonish even way back in the 1700's...

We've become accustomed to the anatomically correct skull & bones, but early pirates (and Freikorps, which is almost the same thing) weren't doctors or anatomy professors...And they obviously weren't artists...

This theory that a German gunsmith would copy cartoonish graphics at the request/payment of an American importer just seems so...improbable...

I just can't see anyone with the skill to do metal graphic engraving (whether diemaking the stamp or cutting the metal with a chisel) not improving the design...

To me, the amateurish graphics prove the authenticity...No, not of all, but at least some (maybe most) of them...I would be surprised if there weren't examples of double-strikes, or uneven strikes, of the skull graphic on some Lugers...

My original question was if the graphic was the same for many Lugers...indicating the same die was used...But I know I've seen different sized skulls pictured, so there had to be more than one...

Nomadr · 01-27-2012, 12:07 AM

Here's a few scary ones.

The one on the GEW98 looks like Bob Hope

Bob

alvin · 01-27-2012, 07:39 AM

Interesting, right eye size on skulls are different (sanded Gew 98 vs Luger).

==
Actually, two different stamps used. Almost everything on two skulls is different in detail. I like the Luger one better. Gew98 one is too stylish.

saab-bob · 01-27-2012, 02:42 PM

Thanks Bob
So,we have a rifle and some lugers with essentially the same style TK logo?
My other thought is about the German gunsmith from the
1960's. If he was adding TK logos with the intent to deceive,wouldn't it better to use the later SS style TK?

Much more menacing looking, as opposed to Bob Hopes skull with a topknot.
Bob

nukem556 · 01-27-2012, 06:08 PM

On page 969 of Volume II of "Pistole Parabellum" is a picture of a fake DH stamp purchased in 1990 in Germany. It is VERY similar to the stamp on this pistol. Sturgess says the 1960 pistols were forged in Hamburg and shipped to the US.

cirelaw · 01-28-2012, 12:18 PM

Fred publised a revised edition with in 1962 with over 320 pages and publised a few pages devoted to the facinating subject.

cirelaw · 01-28-2012, 12:45 PM

R.I.A. Auctions sold this 1914 at auction,

Sieger · 01-28-2012, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab-bob

Thanks Bob
So,we have a rifle and some lugers with essentially the same style TK logo?
My other thought is about the German gunsmith from the
1960's. If he was adding TK logos with the intent to deceive,wouldn't it better to use the later SS style TK?

Much more menacing looking, as opposed to Bob Hopes skull with a topknot.
Bob

Hi:

The TK on the WSS hat in the photo looks like a tanker's TK, not a proper WSS TK to me.

Sieger

cirelaw · 01-28-2012, 09:52 PM

Could these skulls be applied post production?

George Anderson · 01-29-2012, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Could these skulls be applied post production?

Eric, they were all applied post production. The question is were they applied 1917-1918 or 1980's.

01-26-2012, 09:27 PM	#30
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Thanks Postino Great pic. I see that is a heavy duty 2 man flamethrower unit. It makes sense some of these specialized troops where unhappy with how the war ended. They joined the Freikorps to express their displeasure and took their TK insignias with them. Would be interesting to see the style of the TK logo on one of the German WW1 rifles you mentioned. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

01-27-2012, 12:07 AM	#32
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Here's a few scary ones. The one on the GEW98 looks like Bob Hope Bob Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

01-27-2012, 02:42 PM	#34
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Thanks Bob So,we have a rifle and some lugers with essentially the same style TK logo? My other thought is about the German gunsmith from the 1960's. If he was adding TK logos with the intent to deceive,wouldn't it better to use the later SS style TK? Much more menacing looking, as opposed to Bob Hopes skull with a topknot. Bob Attached Images __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

01-28-2012, 12:18 PM	#36
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Fred publised a revised edition with in 1962 with over 320 pages and publised a few pages devoted to the facinating subject. Attached Thumbnails

01-28-2012, 12:45 PM	#37
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	R.I.A. Auctions sold this 1914 at auction, Attached Thumbnails

01-25-2012, 09:59 PM	#23
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I'm laughing too, but.... Would not all guns destined for us gullible, ignorant US collectors still require an import stamp??

01-25-2012, 10:01 PM	#24
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Not in those days And then again, even today they manage to sneak unmarked pistols onto the US market from abroad. Imagine how easy the proces was when nobody really cared, back in the 50s and 60s? Interarms, for example, was importing guns literally by the shiploads, offloading everything on their private docks. And they were just one of the importers.

01-25-2012, 10:24 PM	#25
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	As long as US collectors do not pay extra $$ for this skull more than a "1920" property stamp, it's OK. === Pay extra for a single instance is OK as well.

01-25-2012, 10:27 PM	#26
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Just a thought. If a German gun smith did this job for the exporter, would they be smart enough to just put them on WWI era Lugers? You would think you would see a few (If not many) post war and WWII Lugers with this DH marking also if the reason was to boost the value. Bob

01-25-2012, 10:38 PM	#27
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I look at that DH logo and see, not a skull and cross bones, but a shrunken head w/hair. And the "cross bones" could well be ears. It is a really pathetic characterization of a skull. dju

01-25-2012, 10:44 PM	#28
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Ron mentioned the skull was published in 1958. One possibility was the skull stamp being real on some guns. The German gunsmith mentioned by Vlim could study that article, and started his work in 1960, so he knew the shape, size, WWI etc. There is no conflict in timing. Of course, general theory has nothing to do with this particular instance being real or not.

01-27-2012, 07:39 AM	#33
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Interesting, right eye size on skulls are different (sanded Gew 98 vs Luger). == Actually, two different stamps used. Almost everything on two skulls is different in detail. I like the Luger one better. Gew98 one is too stylish.

01-27-2012, 06:08 PM	#35
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	On page 969 of Volume II of "Pistole Parabellum" is a picture of a fake DH stamp purchased in 1990 in Germany. It is VERY similar to the stamp on this pistol. Sturgess says the 1960 pistols were forged in Hamburg and shipped to the US.

01-28-2012, 09:52 PM	#39
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Could these skulls be applied post production?