Two Lugers please help me ID them.

Hi everyone,
I just joined the LugerForum this is my first post.
I collect mostly WWII bolt action rifles.
My parents have two Lugers. And this is why I'm here to ask for help with these Lugers.
My Dad and I only know they are made at DWM. The serial number on his as far as we can tell looks like 1806 b. And my mothers Luger has back grips and it just has the number 5 stamped on it in many places. Would that 5 be the serial number?

Anyway here are some photos I just took.
This is my dads Luger.

Some kind of box around the number 3.

This the top of my dads Luger.

This is what I think is the serial number on his Luger.
It has what looks like a very old German style letter B under the serial number.



This is my moms Luger.

The top view.





We have no idea what year they are made or anything. As there is no year stamped on them anywhere. I think they ended up in the Russians hands at sometime.
Thanks for any help and thanks for your time.

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, welcome to the forum! Why do you think they ended up in Russian hands?

That said, the first thing is that dad's is obviously an import by the import stamping under the barrel, while both exhibit signs of reblue / dipping, which is common with russian or east german owned guns.

the #5 would be the serial number, and you can see that the toggle has been changed by having a different number on it.

Dads is proofed and accepted on the right, and is in the military manner of serial numbering.

Moms appears to be commerically proofed on the left although it is hard to tell, but is probably a crown N ??

Ed

Thanks Ed for the info.
My dad said he picked up his Luger about 5 years and he got my moms about 2 years ago. My dad said he got my moms at a gunshop and he says at around that time there were alot of Russian imported Lugers being impoted at that time. So he thinks my moms might be Russian captured. He says his Luger he is not for sure if its Russian captured or not.

The crown over the letter N is on bolth Lugers. From what you can see can you tell about what year they where made? And do you think they saw action in WWII?
Thanks again Ed for your reply and help.

[Edward Tinker]

If they were captured / stayed in East Germany, they were most likely used by the germans.

The year is harder, what we need is clear pictures of the front of the gun where the b suffix is (both guns), then clear shots of each side where the acceptance / markings are located. Even then, it will be just in the ballpark, as they made b suffixes in different years.

[Dwight Gruber]

Ron,

An interesting identification challenge.

First off, closer pictures of all the markings would be useful. Try to photograph the guns on something other than a brilliant white background, the guns themselves will lighten up in the photos and be easier to see.

Both guns are reblued, as can be told primatily by the small parts--trigger, thumb safety lever, magazine release, takedown lever. ejector--which are normally straw color, are blued. Both guns have miscellaneous aftermarket grips.

In the first picture, the three inspectors' marks on the right receiver indicate that this gun was produced for WWI. There is a fourth mark, to the right, which seems to be mostly removed--I believe I can detect remnants of a DWM firing proof--a better picture might make it clearer. In this picture also there is evidence of an importer's stamp. It would be useful to see whatever marks are on the bottom of the barrel.

In the second picture, the figures stamped in the boxes are unknown to me. Since they are on both pistols, this suggests that they passed through the same hands or ownership at some point. It is easiest to suspect that they might have something to do with the importer, are there importer's marks on the second gun similar to the first?

In the third picture, as there is no chamber date (as would be proper for a WWI Imperial Luger with the right chamber marks) it has been removed.

In the fourth picture, there is no GERMANY stamp under the frame serial number. This mark would indicate a gun designated for commercial export from Germany (different from the importer's mark referred to previously). Is GERMANY stamped anywhere, on either gun?

The fifth picture is very interesting indeed. The crown/N on the left receiver means that this gun has undergone commercial test proofing, indicating that it was re-proofed after some commercial reworking was done to it. This may relate to being rebarrelled, makeing it crucial to know all the markings on the barrel. There is a mark visible on the left breechblock above the frame rails, it would be useful to know if it is a crown/N or an eagle.


The second gun is as enigmatic as the first. In the left side view a crown/N is clearly visible, but there is another mark next to it, hard to identifyin the picture. Might it be an eagle-over-6? As with the other Luger, what is the stamp on the left breechblock?

In order to tell much more about this gun, it is necessary to know the serial number on the front of the frame and see all the markings on the barrel. Regarding the barrel markings, it might be useful to see a closeup of the bottom of the receiver of both guns.

Is there anything stamped on the inside surface of either gun's sideplate?

What are the magazines like? What are the bases made of? Are there any markings on the bases or the tubes?

Are these Lugers .30 cal. or 9mm?

Your Mom and Dad both have Lugers. I think thats pretty cool.

Really looking forward to more info and better pictures.

--Dwight

Dwight,
Thanks for the info.
I've been working on getting better photos. I might have some better ones posted in the next few hours. I did get another photo of my moms Luger with the black grips. This is what you called in your post the second gun.
here is another photo of the left side. You can see the N with crown above it and there is the number 5.

There is just not alot of markings on these Lugers.
On the bottom of the barrel on bolth Lugers there is the importer mark.
It reads as.
CIA ST AIR VT
LUGER P08 9mm GERMANY.
But as far as other marks there just is not that many.
On my moms Luger there is the number 5 stamped right below the barrel on the frame. That is it there no other marks there.
You asked if there is any stampings that say GERMANY on eather gun.
There is no marks that say GERMANY on eather gun.
About the magazines I don't know what is on them for marks.
I will have to get back to you on those.
And they are 9mm Lugers I don't see any marks that say .30 cal.
My parents shoot these Lugers and they say they really shoot good.
Anyway I will work on getting some better photos.
Thanks for all the help.

I just spoke with my dad.
He said the magazines to bolth Lugers.
Are not the original magazines to them.

I was looking at your question that reads.
The fifth picture is very interesting indeed. The crown/N on the left receiver means that this gun has undergone commercial test proofing, indicating that it was re-proofed after some commercial reworking was done to it. This may relate to being rebarrelled, makeing it crucial to know all the markings on the barrel. There is a mark visible on the left breechblock above the frame rails, it would be useful to know if it is a crown/N or an eagle.

This mark you are asking about in the breechblock above the frame rails is a the crown/N mark.

[Dwight Gruber]

Ron,

Good additional info.

Look for other numbers on your mom's gun: on the back of the rear toggle above the frame; on the bottom edges of the takedown lever and sideplate; on the bottom inside surface of the front toggle piece (oppostie the DWM logo); anywhere on the breechblock; firing pin; trigger, under the trigger plate.

A photo of the front of the frame of this gun (with the receiver in place) would be useful to determine if the metal has been worked on.

Glad to know these guns are in active use.

--Dwight

Originally posted by Dwight Gruber
Ron,

Look for other numbers on your mom's gun: on the back of the rear toggle above the frame; on the bottom edges of the takedown lever and sideplate; on the bottom inside surface of the front toggle piece (oppostie the DWM logo); anywhere on the breechblock; firing pin; trigger, under the trigger plate.
...--Dwight

Dwight,
Ok my dad and I are looking at the gun now.
We are taking it apart to look for more marks.
On the back of the toggle piece there is the number 91 stamped on there. You can see this 91 by just looking at the back of the gun. When you pull the toggle up on the left side of the toggle piece there is another crown/N mark on it. On the side of the trigger there is the the number 98 stamped on the left side of the trigger sear. We think the is the trigger sear the 98 stamping is not on the trigger itself. And right by the trigger there is the number 5 stamped on the take down lever. And there is the letter D stamped right behind the rail on the recever. This D stamping can be seeing if you take the top part of the gun off and turn it over.

[Dwight Gruber]

Ron,

Here is an illustration which may be helpful.



The first part shows where the serial number is on the trigger (hard to see the number itself in this sample, sorry).

The second points out the sear bar, if I understand you correctly the number is stamped on the bar and is hidden by the sideplate.

The third part shows where the serial number will be found underneath the front toggle.

By the bottom edge of the takedown and sideplate, I mean numbered as you see those parts here:



The D stamp you have noted is what is known as a "worker's mark". They were stamped during production for reasons which are unclear, probably internal inspection of some sort; they are not useful in helping identify your Lugers.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

Great identification help guys... you will have these Lugers pegged before long.The only thing that I can add at this point is that the grips on his mom's Luger are aftermarket... not original german. The design is much like the byf bakelite type from the early 1940's but the border is too wide, and the checkering is more crude than the original grips. One other thing, the left side view of Mom's gun showing the serial number 5 on the upper receiver... I think I see a very faint number 2 under the buffing and reblue...to the right of the number 5. I think this gun may have been renumbered at some time in it's life.

I too think it is cool that both of his parents have Lugers. I thnk, that if you are a gun person, that the first time you hold one in your hand, that you are hooked... there just isn't a firearm IMHO, that comes off an assembly line today that fits the hand so well as if it were skin.

Looking forward to additional photos and the unravelling of this mystery set of Lugers.

[Dwight Gruber]

More info not coming in so far, but I figured I'd better note what conclusions I have before the thread falls off the map.

Both guns are commercially proofed with an upright c/N, DWM's practice after 1920. Neither gun has a GERMANY stamp, indicating that they were intended for internal--Garman--sale. Following the IMKK rulings pursuant to the Treaty of Versailles, it is likely that the guns were .30 cal., 3 3/4in barrels.

The import markings CAI ST ALB VT are the hallmark of Century Arms International of St. Albans Vermont. In the absence of other barrel markings, it is likely that Century Arms rebarrelled the guns to 9mm. As this is the only apparent connection between the two guns, it is most likely that the undeciphered frame markings were applied by Century Arms as well.

Dad's Luger is a reworked WWI DWM weapon. Particularly noteworthy is that the sear bar is unrelieved; these were changed to the relieved style in late 1916. This gun also has a stock lug, which began to appear in late 1913. This provides a possible range for the origin of this gun.

1913 Lugers were produced into the e suffix range; a b suffix 1913 is probably too early to have a stock lug (information from Still, "Imperial Lugers"). Costanzo documented the particular inspector stamps on this gun as appearing only in 1914 and 1915.

It is most likely, then, that Dad's Luger started life as a 1914 or 1915 Imperial Army DWM.

The upright c/N on the left receiver and breechblock of Mom's Luger, with no marks on the right receiver, suggests that it probably is an Alphabet Commercial. The number 5 stamped on the frame, receiver, and takedown lever are probably renumbers indicating the frame and upper are mismatched. Without photos of the front of the frame, and numbers from other parts of the gun, not much more can be said.

--Dwight

Dwight,
Thanks for that info there.
Sorry I have not got around to posting better photos.
My dads camera is not working right.
I can't seem to get a very good up close shot. The pictures get really blurry. So I will get them posted here soon. I think its just a setting on the camera that needs to be set.

So with the information that you said in your last post.
It would be safe to assume that bolth my parents Lugers are not that
valuable or even really collectable?
I know they don't mind how collectable or valuable they are. They got them just becasue well.... there Lugers. And there is alot of history with them.
My parents where just wondeing what the story was behind the two they own. Like how old, where they ever used in the German military at somepoint. I know they plan to keep these Lugers.

Anyway I will work on getting you some better photos. And I will tell my parents about what you said.

[Edward Tinker]

two hints;

1. take a picture in as large digitally as your camera allows, then crop the area you want.

2. take it in LOTS of natural light, use lights in the room too, sometimes cameras fail because it thinks there isn't enough light and won't focus.

Ed