1906 Russian Luger on GunBroker - Page 2

drbuster · 07-15-2005, 01:47 AM

Hi again, Big Norm. Ralph Shattuck has told me how he sold "many" lugers both to Buddy Hackett and Sammy Davis, Jr. Buddy Hackett mainly collected Colts but had several "rare" (whatever that means!) Lugers. You are right about Mike Krause's "K" on the toggle, but I don't think the survivor of the DWM company would have sued. He has never sold his .45 Lugers as "originals" and has been up front all the time. He just put into practice his considerable machining skills he learned from his father into a pistol that fascinated him. If you have ever had the experience of holding and examining one of these .45 Lugers, you would be very impressed at the fit and finish...probably it is BETTER than the original.

Big Norm · 07-16-2005, 10:59 PM

I actually had in mind THE 1904 navy and not the .45 cal Luger. Therer have been numerous fraudulent copies of the 1904 navy which has got DWM on it and their have been numerous people taken in by the counterfeits for big money.

Then there is John Martz there is a guy who will produce Luger replicas in just about any caliber that you would want and you wil never ever hear me criticize that wonderful gentleman. I talked to him once over the phone and was truely impressed by his personality. His guns sell for big money but people are not taken in by his product because I don't think anybody would think that DWM ever produced a 38 cal Luger. Plus John has a patent on a safety that he perfected on his guns.

I have never met or talked to Mr Krause. I only know of him through one of my books. If memory serves me right, he was not allowed to use DWM on his toggle.
Big Norm

drbuster · 07-17-2005, 12:02 AM

Thanks for clearing up that slight misunderstanding, Big Norm. Actually, these days, with the high costs of tooling, etc., one would probably have to "invest" quite a bit of money to exactly copy an authentic 1904 Navy. Not having a real one to measure, make casts, etc., it is certain that many mistakes would be made that SHOULD be obvious to advanced collectors. In my humble opinion, one would have to start with a commercial Luger, or the like, and add the barrel, rear sight, etc. All this should be easily spotted. Of interest, Mike Krause seriously thought of making copies of the B-L#5 he possessed for a short time, but even with his machinery already in place, he wouldn't be able to sell it for under $35K. Who would want to spend that kind of money for a copy?

Big Norm · 07-17-2005, 12:52 AM

drbuster,
The reason that I am a bit finicky is that I almost bought what I thought was a 1904 navy. The forum saved me a LOT OF MONEY by clearly telling me what to look for on the fakes. A guy wanted to sell me one and when I showed him what the forum told me, he was heart broken. He had the gun for a long time and truely believed that it was authentic. I am still friends with him.

Simpson had one for sale at about the same time for, I think in the $30,000+ range, maybe even higher. But Simson specified that the rabbit ears were small (that is one of the things that you look for on an authentic 1904 navy). This along with my almost purchasing one started a neat discussion on these navies over this forum. I don't know if Simpson's navy was fake or real but I LOVE this forum for saving me a lot of money and heart ache on the one that I almost bought. But someone bought that gun off of Simpson. Its downright embarressing to pay serious money for a counterfeit. As for me, I decided to become more than just a handsome hunk of red blooded American manhood by studying Lugers more before I buy a rare and very expensive Luger.
Big Norm

drbuster · 07-17-2005, 08:59 AM

Big Norm, I remember that discussion well....a major learning session for us all!

Pete Ebbink · 07-18-2005, 11:09 AM

The '04 Simpsons had for consignment sales was the one Mike Morris was trying to sell. It went back to Mike and I think Tom A. bought it...not for $ 30K...

Mike had it at Tulsa and let Ron Wood and I look her over before it was finally sold.

Big Norm · 07-18-2005, 09:41 PM

Pete,
thanks, but I don't know Mike but I do know that ol' Tommy is a big boy and knows his stuff. The gun that I almost bought had a price tag of $8,000 (not as large as Simpsons price, but big enough for a struggling kid like me from the Ghettoes of Detroit). I just took a SWAG at what Simpsons old price was. But the disparity of prices did set some alarms off in my tiny brain and this forum did set some bells off up there. Now where were those bells when I bought some other stuff?
Big Norm

07-15-2005, 01:47 AM	#21
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Hi again, Big Norm. Ralph Shattuck has told me how he sold "many" lugers both to Buddy Hackett and Sammy Davis, Jr. Buddy Hackett mainly collected Colts but had several "rare" (whatever that means!) Lugers. You are right about Mike Krause's "K" on the toggle, but I don't think the survivor of the DWM company would have sued. He has never sold his .45 Lugers as "originals" and has been up front all the time. He just put into practice his considerable machining skills he learned from his father into a pistol that fascinated him. If you have ever had the experience of holding and examining one of these .45 Lugers, you would be very impressed at the fit and finish...probably it is BETTER than the original.

07-16-2005, 10:59 PM	#22
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I actually had in mind THE 1904 navy and not the .45 cal Luger. Therer have been numerous fraudulent copies of the 1904 navy which has got DWM on it and their have been numerous people taken in by the counterfeits for big money. Then there is John Martz there is a guy who will produce Luger replicas in just about any caliber that you would want and you wil never ever hear me criticize that wonderful gentleman. I talked to him once over the phone and was truely impressed by his personality. His guns sell for big money but people are not taken in by his product because I don't think anybody would think that DWM ever produced a 38 cal Luger. Plus John has a patent on a safety that he perfected on his guns. I have never met or talked to Mr Krause. I only know of him through one of my books. If memory serves me right, he was not allowed to use DWM on his toggle. Big Norm

07-17-2005, 12:02 AM	#23
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Thanks for clearing up that slight misunderstanding, Big Norm. Actually, these days, with the high costs of tooling, etc., one would probably have to "invest" quite a bit of money to exactly copy an authentic 1904 Navy. Not having a real one to measure, make casts, etc., it is certain that many mistakes would be made that SHOULD be obvious to advanced collectors. In my humble opinion, one would have to start with a commercial Luger, or the like, and add the barrel, rear sight, etc. All this should be easily spotted. Of interest, Mike Krause seriously thought of making copies of the B-L#5 he possessed for a short time, but even with his machinery already in place, he wouldn't be able to sell it for under $35K. Who would want to spend that kind of money for a copy?

07-17-2005, 12:52 AM	#24
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	drbuster, The reason that I am a bit finicky is that I almost bought what I thought was a 1904 navy. The forum saved me a LOT OF MONEY by clearly telling me what to look for on the fakes. A guy wanted to sell me one and when I showed him what the forum told me, he was heart broken. He had the gun for a long time and truely believed that it was authentic. I am still friends with him. Simpson had one for sale at about the same time for, I think in the $30,000+ range, maybe even higher. But Simson specified that the rabbit ears were small (that is one of the things that you look for on an authentic 1904 navy). This along with my almost purchasing one started a neat discussion on these navies over this forum. I don't know if Simpson's navy was fake or real but I LOVE this forum for saving me a lot of money and heart ache on the one that I almost bought. But someone bought that gun off of Simpson. Its downright embarressing to pay serious money for a counterfeit. As for me, I decided to become more than just a handsome hunk of red blooded American manhood by studying Lugers more before I buy a rare and very expensive Luger. Big Norm

07-17-2005, 08:59 AM	#25
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Big Norm, I remember that discussion well....a major learning session for us all!

07-18-2005, 11:09 AM	#26
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	The '04 Simpsons had for consignment sales was the one Mike Morris was trying to sell. It went back to Mike and I think Tom A. bought it...not for $ 30K... Mike had it at Tulsa and let Ron Wood and I look her over before it was finally sold.

07-18-2005, 09:41 PM	#27
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, thanks, but I don't know Mike but I do know that ol' Tommy is a big boy and knows his stuff. The gun that I almost bought had a price tag of $8,000 (not as large as Simpsons price, but big enough for a struggling kid like me from the Ghettoes of Detroit). I just took a SWAG at what Simpsons old price was. But the disparity of prices did set some alarms off in my tiny brain and this forum did set some bells off up there. Now where were those bells when I bought some other stuff? Big Norm